The Word According To Garp. Big Editing in the First Gospel

Discussion about the New Testament, apocrypha, gnostics, church fathers, Christian origins, historical Jesus or otherwise, etc.
Solo
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Re: Hans Does Not Sach

Post by Solo »

MrMacSon wrote:
JoeWallack wrote:
For I through the law died unto the law, that I might live unto God.

I have been crucified with Christ; and it is no longer I that live, but Christ living in me: and that [life] which I now live in the flesh I live in faith, [the faith] which is in the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself up for me.

I do not make void the grace of God: for if righteousness is through the law, then Christ died for nought.
It would be interesting to know if this was initially written with reference to a 'christ' other than Jesus the christ of Nazareth

ie. as part of general gnosticism away from the synoptic gospels; before the synoptics were written, or before the synoptics were redacted with the Pauline texts, if that indeed did happen.
The surprising answer to that is that the canonical gospels may well be "gnostic" also. Naturally, it is not the Gnosticism with capital "G" that developed later, after the hard-core Paulinists split from the proto-orthodox church that apparently started to dominate after the appearance of Matthew. But all the gospels are written in gnostic ciphers. My take on the earliest Christianity is that it was exclusively Pauline and making overtures to the Jewish messianists with their own traditions of Jesus. Mark could be read as an attempt to convert the "Petrines" from an apparently classic Jewish messianism to Pauline spiritualist cross theology. Matthew came up with an unexpected solution: Jesus Christ on the cross, yes, but with resurrection proclaimed first by his earthly disciples, not Paul !

Best,
Jiri
Clive
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Re: The Word According To Garp. Big Editing in the First Gos

Post by Clive »

There is an obvious logic to proposing that the New Testament has been edited together to create a consistent picture. There will of course be plot glitches, as all Star Trek fans know.

But a full study of the New Testament and how it self refers would be fascinating!
"We cannot slaughter each other out of the human impasse"
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MrMacSon
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Re: Hans Does Not Sach

Post by MrMacSon »

Solo wrote: The surprising answer to that is that the canonical gospels may well be "gnostic" also.
I agree: I think they likely sprung out of a widespread 'gnosticism' that had developed out of increasingly diverse jewish theology.

Solo wrote: Naturally, it is not the Gnosticism with capital "G" that developed later, after the hard-core Paulinists split from the proto-orthodox church that apparently started to dominate after the appearance of Matthew
"the proto-orthodox church" - a Jewish church? or an early Christian church?

When do you think this happpened?

Solo wrote: My take on the earliest Christianity is that it was exclusively Pauline and making overtures to the Jewish messianists with their own traditions of Jesus.
the Jewish messianists "traditions of Jesus"?? ... or, early Christianity's "tradition of Jesus"?

or a bit of both?
Solo wrote: Mark could be read as an attempt to convert the "Petrines" from an apparently classic Jewish messianism to Pauline spiritualist cross theology. Matthew came up with an unexpected solution: Jesus Christ on the cross, yes, but with resurrection proclaimed first by his earthly disciples, not Paul !
.. resurrection proclaimed first by [Jesus's alleged] earthly disciples?

or resurrection proclaimed first by [Matthew's] earthly disciples?

.
You think Mark and Matthew represent different but related communities? different scriptoria?
.
Solo
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Re: Hans Does Not Sach

Post by Solo »

Solo wrote:
MrMacSon wrote:The surprising answer to that is that the canonical gospels may well be "gnostic" also.
I agree: I think they likely sprung out of a widespread 'gnosticism' that had developed out of increasingly diverse jewish theology.
MrMacSon wrote:
Solo wrote: Naturally, it is not the Gnosticism with capital "G" that developed later, after the hard-core Paulinists split from the proto-orthodox church that apparently started to dominate after the appearance of Matthew
"the proto-orthodox church" - a Jewish church? or an early Christian church?

When do you think this happened?
My best guess is that Matthew appeared somewhere btw 80-90, and would have been dominating the Pauline Christian churches by the end of the century. The consolidation of the Christian faith happened around that text, with some "Lukan" communities emerging soon after (and the Johanine sect later) as dissenters, protesting the Judaising of the faith advocated by Matthew. The "proto-orthodox" faith consolidated on the Matthean-Johanine axis, by the middle of the second century. Theologically, Matthew and John appear to have been the two gospels that really mattered. In a number of the early manuscripts, the order of gospels was Matthew-John-Luke-Mark.
MrMacSon wrote:
Solo wrote: My take on the earliest Christianity is that it was exclusively Pauline and making overtures to the Jewish messianists with their own traditions of Jesus.
the Jewish messianists "traditions of Jesus"?? ... or, early Christianity's "tradition of Jesus"?
or a bit of both?
I take the preaching of crucified Christ from James' church in Jerusalem to be fiction that arose around Matthew's time as a way to defeat the Paulinists. The original claim of the Pauline churches was that he was the one and only true apostle of Christ and the gospel derived from him and him alone. IMHO there is no other way that Mark's gospel makes any sense. This original schema was brilliantly overturned by Matthew, who codified the tradition of the twelve apostles (the Markan "apostolic inventory" 3:16-19 is a later fake), with Peter as an apostle and Jesus-certified leader of the church. Starting with Matthew the only true tradition was the "witness" of the disciples. Luke was unable to handle this fundamental shift, and the account of Paul in the Acts was a compromise formula which settled for a portrait of the original apostle as the leading missionary and builder of the church among the Gentiles. The Johanines fought the Petrine apostolate with the beloved disciple-paraclete theory, but the twelve apostles stuck. It was simply too dangerous to build the church on continuous revelations of the Risen One. The spiritualist church of living in the "last days" was finally defeated with the Montanists, and the church became the familiar Catholic faith with the only authoritative witness of Christ by the twelve apostles led by Peter.
MrMacSon wrote:
Solo wrote: Mark could be read as an attempt to convert the "Petrines" from an apparently classic Jewish messianism to Pauline spiritualist cross theology. Matthew came up with an unexpected solution: Jesus Christ on the cross, yes, but with resurrection proclaimed first by his earthly disciples, not Paul !
.. resurrection proclaimed first by [Jesus's alleged] earthly disciples?

or resurrection proclaimed first by [Matthew's] earthly disciples?
Good question ! 8-)

(The only thing I can really say to that is that those Pauline Christians who accepted Matthew's account must have believed in the reality of Jesus' ministry on Earth, even though they knew the gospel was symbolic fiction.)

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Jiri
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MrMacSon
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Re: Hans Does Not Sach

Post by MrMacSon »

Solo wrote:.
I take the preaching of crucified Christ from James' church in Jerusalem to be fiction that arose around Matthew's time as a way to defeat the Paulinists.
ie.
".. the preaching of crucified Christ from James' church in Jerusalem to be fiction that arose around Matthew's time; as a way [for James' church] to defeat the Paulinists ??

[in a competition for followers; or a competition of theology; or both] ??

Solo wrote:.
The original claim of the Pauline churches was that he was the one and only true apostle of Christ and the gospel derived from him and him alone.
he - 'Paul'? "Simon"/'Paul'? or the doctrine around a 'Paul'?


This is interesting -
Solo wrote:IMHO there is no other way that Mark's gospel makes any sense. This original schema was brilliantly overturned by Matthew, who codified the tradition of the twelve apostles (the Markan "apostolic inventory" 3:16-19 is a later fake), with Peter as an apostle and Jesus-certified leader of the church.

Starting with Matthew the only true tradition was the "witness" of the disciples. Luke was unable to handle this fundamental shift, and the account of Paul in the Acts was a compromise formula which settled for a portrait of the original apostle as the leading missionary and builder of the church among the Gentiles.

The Johanines fought the Petrine apostolate with the beloved disciple-paraclete theory, but the twelve apostles stuck. It was simply too dangerous to build the church on continuous revelations of the Risen One. The spiritualist church of living in the "last days" was finally defeated with the Montanists, and the church became the familiar Catholic faith, with the only authoritative witness of Christ by the twelve apostles led by Peter.
How have you come to this assessment/summary/conclusion? (I don't doubt, just genuinely seek to know)

Solo wrote: Mark could be read as an attempt to convert the "Petrines" from an apparently classic Jewish messianism to Pauline spiritualist cross theology. Matthew came up with an unexpected solution: Jesus Christ on the cross, yes, but with resurrection proclaimed first by his earthly disciples, not Paul !
MrMacSon wrote: .. resurrection proclaimed first by [Jesus's alleged] earthly disciples?

or resurrection proclaimed first by [Matthew's] earthly disciples?
Solo wrote:Good question 8-) The only thing I can really say to that is that those Pauline Christians who accepted Matthew's account must have believed in the reality of Jesus' ministry on Earth, even though they knew the gospel was symbolic fiction.
Subsequent generations may not have considered the gospel to be fiction - it would have, ironically, become & been "gospel truth" for those later generations
.
Solo
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Re: Hans Does Not Sach

Post by Solo »

MrMacSon wrote:
Solo wrote:.
I take the preaching of crucified Christ from James' church in Jerusalem to be fiction that arose around Matthew's time as a way to defeat the Paulinists.
ie.
".. the preaching of crucified Christ from James' church in Jerusalem to be fiction that arose around Matthew's time; as a way [for James' church] to defeat the Paulinists ??

[in a competition for followers; or a competition of theology; or both] ??
Both, but that is an involved matter.
MrMacSon wrote:
Solo wrote:.
The original claim of the Pauline churches was that he was the one and only true apostle of Christ and the gospel derived from him and him alone.
he - 'Paul'? "Simon"/'Paul'? or the doctrine around a 'Paul'?
Paul. I don't buy the Simon = Paul theory.
MrMacSon wrote:This is interesting -
Solo wrote:IMHO there is no other way that Mark's gospel makes any sense. This original schema was brilliantly overturned by Matthew, who codified the tradition of the twelve apostles (the Markan "apostolic inventory" 3:16-19 is a later fake), with Peter as an apostle and Jesus-certified leader of the church.

Starting with Matthew the only true tradition was the "witness" of the disciples. Luke was unable to handle this fundamental shift, and the account of Paul in the Acts was a compromise formula which settled for a portrait of the original apostle as the leading missionary and builder of the church among the Gentiles.

The Johanines fought the Petrine apostolate with the beloved disciple-paraclete theory, but the twelve apostles stuck. It was simply too dangerous to build the church on continuous revelations of the Risen One. The spiritualist church of living in the "last days" was finally defeated with the Montanists, and the church became the familiar Catholic faith, with the only authoritative witness of Christ by the twelve apostles led by Peter.
How have you come to this assessment/summary/conclusion? (I don't doubt, just genuinely seek to know)
Doubting is ok. The above is a digest that I landed on after absorbing a quantity of books on the texts and the Early Church.
MrMacSon wrote:
Solo wrote:The only thing I can really say to that is that those Pauline Christians who accepted Matthew's account must have believed in the reality of Jesus' ministry on Earth, even though they knew the gospel was symbolic fiction.
Subsequent generations may not have considered the gospel to be fiction - it would have, ironically, become & been "gospel truth" for those later generations
I believe Paul Tillich when he says that the patristic church basically cut itself from its own origins. It goes again back to suppressing the communal property of the Spirit in favour of the apostolic authority. On the question of historicity of the gospel events, the church had a split personality, on the one hand representing Jesus pronouncements as oracles of the Lord visiting the apostles, and on the other hand, as straightforward talk of historical Jesus in a definite time and place, received and remembered as oral history. One excellent example of the "double-think" is Irenaeus in A.H. 3.1 insisting that the apostles had to be first perfected by the holy spirit before preaching the gospel. Why would that be necessary if they were handpicked by Jesus himself and reported on actual events around him and his words (as Peter did for Mark) ? Evidently, there were two contradictory accounts: one of the oracles (logia) of the Lord which appears to be the original form of transmission (and to which one has access only via spirit), and the sayings (logoi) of Jesus of Nazareth, the man, which was how the revelatory artifacts were apprehended later.

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Jiri
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Re: The Word According To Garp. Big Editing in the First Gos

Post by JoeWallack »

JW:
Mark 14:28
Howbeit, after I am raised up, I will go before you into Galilee. (ASV)
This verse has long been a stumbling block for CBS (Christian Bible Scholarship) [for Stephen Huller]which textually abuses it and its sister verse[/for Stephen Huller] 16:7 as proof-text that the original Gospel [SH]intended to show its Peter[/SH] and disciples as witnesses for a fully resurrerected Jesus.

I have previously indicated that the offending 14:28 is under some pressure as original based on Literary Criticism (and if 14:28 is late than 16:7 which is dependent on 14:28 probably is too):
1) Peter's response of 14:29 is completely non-responsive to 14:28.

2) It's unlikely that any prophecy would be given by "Mark's" Jesus whose significance would be so reduced in the next line.

3) 14:28 breaks an otherwise balanced chiastic structure for the surrounding verses.

4) 14:28 uses a passive form of "raised up" while the 3 passion predictions use an active form.

5) 14:28 completely reverses the point of 14:27 with no apparent motivation or explanation for doing so which doesn't fit the style of "Mark".

6) The grammar of 14:28 is awkward compared to the Markan narrative and suggests a different source.
The evil and wicked Christian Bible scholar Dan Wallace makes the following boast about the supposed certainty of an extant Christian Bible that faithfully reproduces the original for all practicing purposes:

Dr. Wallace: Earliest Manuscript of the New Testament Discovered?
But the most interesting thing is the first-century fragment.

It was dated by one of the world’s leading paleographers. He said he was ‘certain’ that it was from the first century. If this is true, it would be the oldest fragment of the New Testament known to exist. Up until now, no one has discovered any first-century manuscripts of the New Testament. The oldest manuscript of the New Testament has been P52, a small fragment from John’s Gospel, dated to the first half of the second century. It was discovered in 1934.

Not only this, but the first-century fragment is from Mark’s Gospel.
...
As with all the previously published New Testament papyri (127 of them, published in the last 116 years), not a single new reading has commended itself as authentic. Instead, the papyri function to confirm what New Testament scholars have already thought was the original wording or, in some cases, to confirm an alternate reading—but one that is already found in the manuscripts. As an illustration: Suppose a papyrus had the word “the Lord” in one verse while all other manuscripts had the word “Jesus.” New Testament scholars would not adopt, and have not adopted, such a reading as authentic, precisely because we have such abundant evidence for the original wording in other manuscripts. But if an early papyrus had in another place “Simon” instead of “Peter,” and “Simon” was also found in other early and reliable manuscripts, it might persuade scholars that “Simon” is the authentic reading. In other words, the papyri have confirmed various readings as authentic in the past 116 years, but have not introduced new authentic readings. The original New Testament text is found somewhere in the manuscripts that have been known for quite some time.

These new papyri will no doubt continue that trend. But, if this Mark fragment is confirmed as from the first century, what a thrill it will be to have a manuscript that is dated within the lifetime of many of the eyewitnesses to Jesus’ resurrection!
The above would be quite a hit to ole Dan's credibility if he had any to start with. It's hard to get through Dan's maze above but reading between the lines, there have been new discoveries that are new discoveries (a previously unknown reading). Of course a better standard than Dan's "no new authentic readings" is should there be any new readings or does a new discovery at least create doubt regarding an otherwise "authentic reading".

The Fayyum Fragment:
The Fayyum Fragment (Papyrus Vindobonensis Greek 2325 [P. Vienna G. 2325]) is a papyrus fragment containing text that could be from part of the New Testament, and consists of only about 100 Greek letters. The fragment was originally discovered in Al-Fayyum, Egypt, and was translated in 1885 by Gustav Bickell after it was found in the papyrus collection of Archduke Rainer Joseph of Austria in Vienna.

The surviving manuscript is badly damaged and has fewer than a hundred Greek letters preserved.[1] Because of its style of handwriting it is believed to have been copied around the end of the third century.[2] The text seems to parallel Mark 14:26-31, appearing to present a more abbreviated account. It is unclear whether the fragment is an abridged version of the synoptic gospels, or a source text on which they were based, perhaps the apocryphal Gospel of Peter.
is the oldest known potential manuscript witness to 14:28's neighborhood. Sadly the confessional, er, professional Textual Criticism apparachicks tend to either give it the silent treatment (so to speak) or dismiss it as not having any textual criticism value because it is a "radical" "abbreviation" of multiple sources. Laparola to its credit does inventory it as a variant reading.

Everyone would agree that Fayyum primarily parallels GMark and GMatthew here and that the only significant difference is that Fayyum appears to lack all of 14:28. Even if Fayyum is some kind of harmonization of Gospels here, since it primarily parallels GMark and GMatthew here and lacks all of 14:28 which they both have, it would still be reMarkable not to consider it good or at least some textual criticism evidence against 14:28 as original since it is the oldest known potential witness. It also is supported by the Literary Criticism above.

Our own Benjamin Smith, probably the best Christian scholar ever to grace FRDB, went to the trouble (upon sufficient goading) of analyzing parallels between Fayyum and the Gospels:

Papyrus Vindobonensis 2325
Agreements of Mark and Fayyum against Matthew:

Mark and Fayyum each have οτι (that), which Matthew lacks.
Mark and Fayyum each lack υμεις (explicit you), which Matthew has.*
Mark and Fayyum each lack εν εμοι (at me), which Matthew has.*
Mark and Fayyum each locate τα προβατα (the sheep) before διασκορπισθησονται (shall be scattered), while Matthew reverses the order.**
Mark and Fayyum each lack της ποιμνης (of the flock), which Matthew has.*
Mark and Fayyum (apparently) each lack αποκριθεις (having answered), which Matthew has.*
Mark and Fayyum each have και (even, but in slightly different locations), which Matthew lacks.
Mark and Fayyum each lack εν σοι (at you), which Matthew has.*
Mark and Fayyum each have ουκ (not), while Matthew has ουδεποτε (never).
Mark and Fayyum each lack σκανδαλισθησομαι (I shall be scandalized), which Matthew has.*
Mark and Fayyum each lack εν (on), which Matthew has.*
Mark and Fayyum each have δις (twice), which Matthew lacks.
Mark and Fayyum (apparently) each have με απαρνηση (you will deny me), while Matthew reverses the order.**

Words changed from Matthew: 1.
Words added to Matthew: 3.
Words subtracted from Matthew: 10.
Order changed from Matthew: 2.

Agreements of Matthew and Fayyum against Mark:

Matthew and Fayyum each have εν ταυτη τη νυκτι (on this night), which Mark lacks.
Matthew has ειπεν (said) and Fayyum likely has ειποντος (having said), while Mark has εφη (spoke).
Matthew and Fayyum each lack αλλ (but or rather), which Mark has.*
Matthew and Fayyum each lack συ σημερον (you today), which Mark has.*
Matthew and Fayyum each lack η (virtually untranslatable in this instance with πριν), which Mark has.*

Words changed from Mark: 1.
Words added to Mark: 4.
Words subtracted from Mark: 4.
Clearly Fayyum parallels best with GMark. That CBS generally does not inventory Fayyum here is a Shandah, it's Lashon Hora, it's a Chillul HaShem.


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The sacred books of our holy religion, as distinguished from the false and profane writings on which all other faiths are based.

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MrMacSon
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Re: The Word According To Garp. Big Editing in the First Gos

Post by MrMacSon »

14.28 is proleptic in the sense of being "the representation of something in the future as if it already existed or had occurred"

a lot of the bible seems to be proleptic in the sense of "assigning of a person, event, etc., to a period earlier than the actual one"

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/proleptic

also; http://www.thefreedictionary.com/Proleptic
Solo
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Re: The Word According To Garp. Big Editing in the First Gos

Post by Solo »

JoeWallack wrote:JW:
Mark 14:28
Howbeit, after I am raised up, I will go before you into Galilee. (ASV)
This verse has long been a stumbling block for CBS (Christian Bible Scholarship) [for Stephen Huller]which textually abuses it and its sister verse[/for Stephen Huller] 16:7 as proof-text that the original Gospel [SH]intended to show its Peter[/SH] and disciples as witnesses for a fully resurrerected Jesus.

I have previously indicated that the offending 14:28 is under some pressure as original based on Literary Criticism (and if 14:28 is late than 16:7 which is dependent on 14:28 probably is too):
1) Peter's response of 14:29 is completely non-responsive to 14:28.
Hey Joe, where are you going with that gun in your hand ?.....

Verses 14:28, and Peter's non-response in 14:29 is what makes Mark's end scene work. When the young man in the cave says to the women "there you will see him as he told you" in 16:7, Mark is fully aware that Peter & Co "did not get" Jesus in 14:28. They ignore the "after I have been raised" because they do not understand resurrection (as preached by Paul). Jesus tries to teach the disciples Paul's (spiritual) resurrection several times: at Caesarea Philippi, after demonstrating his resurrected state on the mountain and again in 9:30-31:
They went on from there and passed through Galilee. And he would not have any one know it; for he was teaching his disciples, saying to them, "The Son of man will be delivered into the hands of men, and they will kill him; and when he is killed, after three days he will rise."


Big, fat, messianic secret. And what is the response of the disciples ?
But they did not understand the saying, and they were afraid to ask him.


After teaching them again Paul's theology in 10:33-34 the Zebedees ask him to sit next to him when he is crowned in his Messianic glory....again thinking of a different Messianic schema.

So, on the Olivet, Peter and the disciples have no idea what Jesus is talking about. Like during and after the transfig on the mountain, Peter does not how to react to the idea of the SoM rising from the dead. The harping on the disciples' not grasping or not hearing Jesus lessons about the earthly fate of the Messiah, prepares the plot of the angel in the cave telling the women "as he told you". But there was nothing registered by the disciples because they, hoi psychikoi as they are, frighten of the idea of a dead Messiah as they do not know what the rising from the dead means. They do not know (Paul's) gospel. The good news of Jesus rising does not ever get to Peter, but it gets to the heirs of Peter's traditions through Mark's gospel of Jesus Christ.

Now, I realize that this is a difficult goulash to digest for the folks who were taught that the church of Jesus Christ started in Jerusalem by his earthly companions and that Paul bought into the church of "resurrected Christ" after he was schooled in Damascus by the brethern. Unfortunately, they cannot have it both ways. It is either Mark or Luke that is not telling it like it was. Tough choice, but one that Christians do not have the option to run away from and deny three times before the cock crows.

Best,
Jiri
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Re: The Word According To Garp. Big Editing in the First Gos

Post by Kunigunde Kreuzerin »

Solo wrote:
JoeWallack wrote:I have previously indicated that the offending 14:28 is under some pressure as original based on Literary Criticism (and if 14:28 is late than 16:7 which is dependent on 14:28 probably is too):
Hey Joe, where are you going with that gun in your hand ?.....

... When the young man in the cave says to the women "there you will see him as he told you" in 16:7, ...
As a little side note: I read currently a bit about, “who” sees “what” in GMark. Mark used three verbs for the process of seeing: ὁράω (horaó), βλέπω (blepó) and θεωρέω (theóreó). In Mark 16:7 the used verb is ὄψεσθε (opsesthe) a form of ὁράω (horaó). The disciples “see” Jesus explicitly only twice, in ...
Mark 6:48-50: And about the fourth watch of the night he came to them, walking on the sea. He meant to pass by them, but when they saw (ἰδόντες - a form of ὁράω) him walking on the sea they thought it was a ghost, and cried out, for they all saw (εἶδον - a form of ὁράω) him and were terrified.

Mark 9:8-9: And suddenly, looking around (περιβλεψάμενοι - a form of βλέπω), they no longer saw (εἶδον - a form of ὁράω) anyone with them but Jesus only. And as they were coming down the mountain, he charged them to tell no one what they had seen (εἶδον - a form of ὁράω), until the Son of Man had risen from the dead.
Otherwise the disciples see (all in forms of ὁράω) explicitly only the folks with the scribes in Mark 9:14, the withered fig tree in Mark 11:20 and the strange wonder worker in Mark 9:38. ;)

The preferred verb for the three women is θεωρέω (theóreó) - Mark 15:40, 15:47, 16:4, but there is also ὁράω (horaó) and βλέπω (blepó). :confusedsmiley:
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