Petavius on the Panarion

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andrewcriddle
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Petavius on the Panarion

Post by andrewcriddle »

GRS Mead discusses the passage in the Panarion of Epiphanius about the Nazoreans that a/ In its present form seems to say that Jesus was born in the time of Alexander Jannaeus, b/ Seems a garbled version of a more mainstream claim found e.g. in Eusebius Demonstration of the Gospel book 8 chapter 2. About the passing of the Hasmonean priest-kings leading to the coming of Christ in fulfilment of prophesy.

Mead mentions the conjectural emendation of Petavius. Which I have located online.
Animadversiones

In effect Petavius changed a text like this
διέπεσε δὲ ἡ τάξις καὶ έστη ἐξότε αὐτὸς γεννᾶται ἐν Βηθλεὲμ τῆς Ἰουδαίας, ἐπὶ Ἀλεξάνδρου τοῦ ἀπὸ γένους ἱερατικοῦ καὶ βασιλικοῦ. ἀφ' οὗ Ἀλεξάνδρου διέπεσεν οὗτος ὁ κλῆρος ἀπὸ χρόνων Σαλίνας, τῆς καὶ Ἀλεξάνδρας καλουμένης, ἐπὶ τοῖς χρόνοις Ἡρῴδου τοῦ βασιλέως καὶ Αὐγούστου τοῦ Ῥωμαίων αὐτοκράτορος· ὃς καὶ διάδημα ἐπέθετο ἑαυτῷ ὁ Ἀλέξανδρος οὗτος, εἷς τῶν χριστῶν καὶ ἡγουμένων ὑπάρχων.
Into this
διέπεσε δὲ ἡ τάξις ἐξότε αὐτὸς γεννᾶται ἐν Βηθλεὲμ τῆς Ἰουδαίας, ἐπὶ τοῖς χρόνοις Ἡρῴδου τοῦ βασιλέως καὶ Αὐγούστου τοῦ Ῥωμαίων αὐτοκράτορος· καὶ έστη ἐπὶ Ἀλεξάνδρου τοῦ ἀπὸ γένους ἱερατικοῦ καὶ βασιλικοῦ. ἀφ' οὗ Ἀλεξάνδρου διέπεσεν οὗτος ὁ κλῆρος ἀπὸ χρόνων Σαλίνας, τῆς καὶ Ἀλεξάνδρας καλουμένης, ὃς καὶ διάδημα ἐπέθετο ἑαυτῷ ὁ Ἀλέξανδρος οὗτος, εἷς τῶν χριστῶν καὶ ἡγουμένων ὑπάρχων.
(I'm using a modern text which differs slightly from the text Petavius was using.)

This emendation keeps all the words of the original but avoids the unusual date of birth of Christ. One problem is that if Petavius is right about the original then two stages seem necessary to reach the extant text. First the accidental displacement of the clause about Herod and Augustus then a small deliberate rearrangement of the resultant text so as to produce something that made grammatical sense.

I suspect that our extant text is corrupt, I am much less sure that Petavius has restored the original.

Andrew Criddle
Last edited by andrewcriddle on Thu Sep 04, 2014 10:18 am, edited 2 times in total.
andrewcriddle
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Re: Peteavius on the Panarion

Post by andrewcriddle »

Could the title please be changed from Peteavius to Petavius ?

Andrew Criddle
perseusomega9
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Re: Peteavius on the Panarion

Post by perseusomega9 »

Also, change the chartreuse color of the highlighted text, it doesn't work with the quote block colors ;)
The metric to judge if one is a good exegete: the way he/she deals with Barabbas.

Who disagrees with me on this precise point is by definition an idiot.
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andrewcriddle
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Re: Peteavius on the Panarion

Post by andrewcriddle »

perseusomega9 wrote:Also, change the chartreuse color of the highlighted text, it doesn't work with the quote block colors ;)
Is that better ?

Andrew Criddle
Stephan Huller
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Re: Peteavius on the Panarion

Post by Stephan Huller »

What this suggests to me at least (slightly off topic) is that the rabbinic (or perhaps later) mention of Jesus appearing during the time of Jannai was influenced by the Nazoraeans. In other words, Epiphanius is probably reporting accurate information (for once or maybe twice).
andrewcriddle
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Re: Peteavius on the Panarion

Post by andrewcriddle »

Stephan Huller wrote:What this suggests to me at least (slightly off topic) is that the rabbinic (or perhaps later) mention of Jesus appearing during the time of Jannai was influenced by the Nazoraeans. In other words, Epiphanius is probably reporting accurate information (for once or maybe twice).
The issue here is whether the odd chronology is a (presumably accurate) account of the unusual views of the Nazoreans, or an account of Epiphanius' own views (garbled in transmission).

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theomise
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Re: Peteavius on the Panarion

Post by theomise »

Epiphanius, in general, never struck me as a guy overly concerned with accuracy. Maybe it's his writing style (and this is subjective, obviously), but to me he just comes across as sloppy, ill-informed, and perhaps not the brightest tool in the shed. When other church fathers say weird shit (Irenaeus, or Clement of Alexandria, or Origen, or etc.) it definitely gets my attention ... whereas I almost expect it with Epiphanius. There are a lot of instances where he seems to get into a groove and just starts "riffing" - regardless of how much he actually knows about a subject.

That being said, it's certainly an interesting passage. To the extent that it says anything about 4th century Christianity, I would interpret it as reflecting a certain casualness and fluidity toward the finer points of the imagined historical Jesus chronology. That is to say, a bit more supportive of mythicism than alternative-historicism.
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DCHindley
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Re: Peteavius on the Panarion

Post by DCHindley »

theomise wrote:Epiphanius, in general, never struck me as a guy overly concerned with accuracy. Maybe it's his writing style (and this is subjective, obviously), but to me he just comes across as sloppy, ill-informed, and perhaps not the brightest tool in the shed. When other church fathers say weird shit (Irenaeus, or Clement of Alexandria, or Origen, or etc.) it definitely gets my attention ... whereas I almost expect it with Epiphanius. There are a lot of instances where he seems to get into a groove and just starts "riffing" - regardless of how much he actually knows about a subject.

That being said, it's certainly an interesting passage. To the extent that it says anything about 4th century Christianity, I would interpret it as reflecting a certain casualness and fluidity toward the finer points of the imagined historical Jesus chronology. That is to say, a bit more supportive of mythicism than alternative-historicism.
theomise,

I think you hit the nail squarely on the head. I've been playing with the Greek text and also Frank Williams translation and it is clear that even Williams was unsure how to translate some of the text in this section. Where elsewhere he seems to follow the Greek text pretty closely, in the segment cited by Andrew he goes off wildly, apparently trying to make sense of it, citing all sorts of variants of the statements found in other writers, possibly even adopting some of their readings.

Williams translates thus:
3,3 For the rulers in succession from Judah came to an end with Christ’s arrival. Until he came < the > rulers < were anointed priests >, but after his birth in Bethlehem of Judaea the order ended and was altered in the time of Alexander, a ruler of priestly and kingly stock. (4) This position died out with this Alexander from the time of Salina also known as Alexandra, in the time of King Herod and the Roman emperor Augustus. (Though this Alexander was crowned also, as one of the anointed priests and rulers. (5) For when the two tribes, the kingly and priestly, were united — I mean the tribe of Judah with Aaron and the whole tribe of Levi—kings also became priests, for nothing hinted at in holy scripture can be wrong.) (6) But then finally a gentile, King Herod, was crowned, and not David’s descendants any more.
The-Panarion-of-Epiphanius-of-Salamis (ET Frank Williams, vol 1, 2nd ed 2009)
Petavius' emendation produced something like this, using William's translation:
3,3 For the rulers in succession from Judah came to an end with Christ’s arrival. Until he came < the > rulers < were anointed priests >, but after his birth in Bethlehem of Judaea the order ended in the time of King Herod and the Roman emperor Augustus, and was altered. In the time of Alexander, a ruler of priestly and kingly stock. (4) This position died out with this Alexander from the time of Salina also known as Alexandra. (Though this Alexander was crowned also, as one of the anointed priests and rulers. (5) For when the two tribes, the kingly and priestly, were united — I mean the tribe of Judah with Aaron and the whole tribe of Levi—kings also became priests, for nothing hinted at in holy scripture can be wrong.) (6) But then finally a gentile, King Herod, was crowned, and not David’s descendants any more.
What I seem to get out of Epiphanius' Greek is something like this:
3,3) For with Christ’s royal coming, the succession of rulers from Judah ceased. For until he came rulers < were anointed priests >, but that order ended and was altered from his birth in Bethlehem of the Judeans. In the time of Alexander, a ruler of priestly and kingly stock. (4) This position died out with this Alexander from the time of Salina also known as Alexandra, in the time of King Herod and the Roman emperor Augustus. (Though this Alexander was crowned also, making the anointed (priests) to be rulers also (or alternately, making the anointed (priests) also subordinate governors). (5) For when the two tribes, the kingly and priestly, were united — I mean the tribe of Judah with Aaron and the whole tribe of Levi — kings and priests come together; for nothing hinted at in holy scripture can be wrong.) (6) But then in the time of a refugee from another tribe, King Herod, the crown was not passed on to David’s descendants any more.
No matter how one looks at it, it is still confused as hell. It was Simon, not Alexander Janneus, who was the first high priest to be declared a hereditary ruler. This was by popular decree, circa 141/140 BCE, and this declaration was confirmed by the Syrian ruler out of necessity, effectively making Simon an "independent" client king to Syria.

However, it was Hyrcanus II who petitioned Roman intervention in his civil war with Aristobolus II and in the process relinquished the rule to Roman procurators (Antipater, and later his sons, including Herod), although Hyrcanus II retained the high priesthood, until Herod was appointed king by the Romans when Hyrcanus was mutilated and carried away by the Parthians during the revolt of Antigonus II.

Even then the Hasmonean Aristobulus II, who had also exercised both high priestly and government roles when he was in control before Hyrcanus got the Romans to intervene, was still quite alive and was used by Caesar to threaten Herod's control of Judea under Antony, although Aristobulus was poisoned before he could make use of his two legions against Herod.

I'm inclined to think that Epiphanius has confused Alexander Janneus with both Simon the founder of the Hasmonean dynasty and Hyrcanus II who ended the practice of joint possession of government and high priestly duties. It doesn't seem that he sees any problem with priestly rule as a variance from rule by the house of David, since David was said to have some priestly characteristics (in the Psalms, mainly). The house of David was anyone from the people of Judah and the family of Aaron from Levi. He was cool with that. The Gospels say that Jesus was a descendant of David, so he must have been, at least spiritually, picking up where the physical descendants had failed. Scripture cannot be wrong, so he has no problem twisting historical reality to make it resonate with scripture. It's not like we don't see such attempts to make silk purses out of sows' ears even today.

DCH
Last edited by DCHindley on Fri Sep 05, 2014 9:16 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Peteavius on the Panarion

Post by MrMacSon »

theomise wrote:Epiphanius, in general, never struck me as a guy overly concerned with accuracy. Maybe it's his writing style (and this is subjective, obviously), but to me he just comes across as sloppy, ill-informed, and perhaps not the brightest tool in the shed. When other church fathers say weird shit (Irenaeus, or Clement of Alexandria, or Origen, or etc.) it definitely gets my attention ... whereas I almost expect it with Epiphanius. There are a lot of instances where he seems to get into a groove and just starts "riffing" - regardless of how much he actually knows about a subject.

That being said, it's certainly an interesting passage. To the extent that it says anything about 4th century Christianity, I would interpret it as reflecting a certain casualness and fluidity toward the finer points of the imagined historical Jesus chronology. That is to say, a bit more supportive of mythicism than alternative-historicism.
  • "There are a lot of instances where he seems to get into a groove and just starts "riffing"

    "To the extent that it says anything about 4th century Christianity, I would interpret it as reflecting a certain casualness and fluidity toward the finer points of the imagined historical Jesus chronology."
It would seem a lot of theology is like that.
.
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DCHindley
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Re: Peteavius on the Panarion

Post by DCHindley »

andrewcriddle wrote:The issue here is whether the odd chronology is a (presumably accurate) account of the unusual views of the Nazoreans, or an account of Epiphanius' own views (garbled in transmission).
Andrew,

Reading through section 29 "Against Nazoraeans," the section you refer to seems to be setting up E's later argument that the Nazoraeans were just another branch of Judeans, and not real Christians.

The passage (29.3.7 of Frank William's translation)
3,7 But with the transfer of the royal throne the rank of king passed, in Christ, from the physical house of David and Israel to the church. The throne is established in God’s holy church forever, and has both the kingly and the high-priestly rank ...
really only makes sense if considered a counter to any claim a Nazoraean, who adopt, he says, Jewish ways and differ in no way from them except accepting Christ as messiah, might make that emphasizes reliance on Judaic traditions like Law and circumcision, which 3,7 says were no longer the basis for royal succession. So Jesus the Jewish messiah based on his physical descent from David means nothing, but Jesus the Christ, a cross between royal and high priestly, born of the holy spirit through Mary, does.
Epiphanius, Panarion, 29,4,6-7 wrote:since David’s seed, through Mary, is seated on the throne, < his throne endures > forever
and of his kingdom there shall be no end. He should now transfer the order of the former kingship; for indeed his kingdom is not earthly, as he said to Pontius Pilate in the Gospel, “My Kingdom is not of this world.” (7) For since Christ brings to fulfillment all the things (that have been said) in riddles, the preliminaries have reached a limit.
Yet after all this posturing, he admits that he really does not know whether they believe Jesus was messiah because he was physically descended from David, or as the product of the holy spirit through Mary.
29.7,6 wrote:As to Christ, I cannot say whether they too are misled by the wickedness of Cerinthus and Merinthus, and regard him as a mere man — or whether, as the truth is, they affirm that he was born of Mary by the Holy Spirit.
DCH
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