Witnessing the Divine

[The Crow]

I meant why question the obvious metaphor of omens predicting the birth of a savior king.

Here is something from the records of Ardashir

One day Artabanus invited to his presence the sages and astrologers, who belonged to his court, and put them the following question: "What do you observe regarding the seven planets and the twelve signs of the zodiac, the position and the motion of the stars, the condition of the contemporary sovereigns of different kingdoms, the condition of the peoples of the world, and regarding myself, children, and our family?"

The chief of the astrologers said in reply as follows: "The Nahazig [Capricorn] is sunk below; the star Jupiter has returned to its culminating point and stands away from Mars and Venus, while Haptoirang [Ursa Major]and the constellation of Leo descend to the verge and give help to Jupiter; whereupon it seems clear that a new lord or king will appear, who will kill many potentates, and bring the world again under the sway of one sovereign." A second leader of the astrologers, too, came in the presence of the King and spoke to the following effect: "It is so manifest that any one of the male servants who flies away from his king within three days from to-day, will attain to greatness and kingship, obtain his wish, and be victorious, over his king."

It continues the ancient tradition of metaphorical King of kings/Lord of lords, savior king as aspect of the sun. Marduk, Shamash, Utu, you name them. The king`s star being the sun. The historical accuracy of astrological prophecies is difficult to examine, as .. well.. you know, it is astrology. Yes there could be astronomical implications in the story, but I struggle to perceive them as more than just metaphorical concepts. Just like I would not believe this is depiction of some historical account.



I am not arguing some astronomical interpretation being hidden in the text or not. I can only share what I have knowledge of, and what I make out of this fragmented mess. You asked for other stories this specific story could have been drawn from. I tried to answer. A discussion about one of them being historical accurate is not something I wish to waste my time on.

Your right I did. Ignore that post I was in a hurry and did not read it thoroughly sorry. And thanks for the above.

[The Crow]

Is there any other story in another religion that this could have been drawn from or is it a complete Christian invention ?

There are lots of stories about astrologers and prophets predicting the advent of great leaders around their birth or when they are young. There was also the Delphi oracles and the Sibylline Books, which were consulted by the rulers of Rome. (I suspect that Paul's statement about "the wisdom of the rulers of this age" is a reference to things like that.) I think wise men decyphering meaningful astrological signs would have been a common trope of the times.

But I see what I believe is a major problem with the story. Firstly it is claimed that the Magi came from Persia. The trip from Persia to Jerusalem according to the Catholic Encyclopedia would have taken 3 to 12 months by camel. Also, according to the Catholic Encyclopedia it would have been a year or more before they reached Jerusalem! So how did they offer gifts to a child that by the time they got there would have been long gone! Astronomically the story is a fluke.

From Matthew 2:

• [7] Then Herod, when he had privily called the wise men, inquired of them diligently what time the star appeared.
  ...
  [16] Then Herod, when he saw that he was mocked of the wise men, was exceeding wroth, and sent forth, and slew all the children that were in Bethlehem, and in all the coasts thereof, from two years old and under, according to the time which he had diligently inquired of the wise men.

Wow, it looks like you are correct. The above implies that Joseph, Mary and Jesus were in Bethlehem for up to two years! The inn-keeper must have been peeved. "Get out of my stables already!"

Sarcasm? There were no inn keepers or stables in that birth narrative. If the actual length of the trip from Persia to Jerusalem was actually what is claimed by the Catholic Encyclopedia then these Magi never witnessed any new born baby.......they may have encountered a baby from several months up to two years old but not a new born. As far as I know there is no evidence of Herod's Slaughter of the Innocents.

[GakuseiDon]

No, definitely not sarcasm, but genuine surprise. It's the first time I've noticed that in gMatthew.

[toejam]

Just finished Morton Smith's "Jesus the Magician" recently. His take is that Matthew's story of the visiting magi is partially influenced "by the visit of Tiridates and his train to Nero that culminated in their reverencing him as a god" (p.131), to which he refers to Dio Cassius LXIII.5.2. Later he concludes that the story was created as a means of establishing Jesus' authority over the magi.

[GakuseiDon]

Just finished Morton Smith's "Jesus the Magician" recently. His take is that Matthew's story of the visiting magi is partially influenced "by the visit of Tiridates and his train to Nero that culminated in their reverencing him as a god" (p.131), to which he refers to Dio Cassius LXIII.5.2. Later he concludes that the story was created as a means of establishing Jesus' authority over the magi.

That's interesting, toejam. It may help The Crow with his question in the OP. Looking at Wiki:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tiridates_I_of_Armenia

• The visit of Tiridates I, an event that greatly impressed contemporaries, apparently was adapted by Christians to become the story of the adoration of the Christ Child by the Three Magi.[37] The Christian legend changed Rome into Bethlehem, the birthplace of the Ruler of the coming Kingdom of God, and replaced Tiridates I with that contemporary king who was already connected with Christianity through the Acts of St. Thomas: Gondophares, otherwise known as Kaspar.[38]

References:
[37] A. Dietrich, „“Die Weisen aus dem Morgenlande“, Zeitschrift für die Neutestamentliche Wissenschaft, Bd. III, 1902, S.1-14; cited in J. Duchesne-Guillemin, “Die Drei Weisen aus dem Morgenlande und die Anbetung der Zeit”, Antaios, Vol. VII, 1965, p. 234-252, p.245.
[38] Ernst Herzfeld, Archaeological History of Iran, London, Oxford University Press for the British Academy, 1935, pp.65-66.

[Leucius Charinus]

The Revelation of the Magi
https://www.academia.edu/207910/The_Sag ... Apocryphon

The Magi, originally Sethians, get converted to Christianity - An entertaining story of the Magi, their history, their role in attending the birth of the Jesus Star, and their ultimate conversion to Christianity in a far-off land by Thomas Judas (of great fame in his "Acts of Thomas" where he converts the Indians from Hinduism and Buddhism). Why the Magi were required to be converted from their tradition to Christianity is rhetorical.

Also see: http://usatoday30.usatoday.com/yourlife ... -men_N.htm

• Now, a first-ever English translation and detailed analysis of a little-known eighth-century manuscript of a story probably written in the second or third century uncovers a far more substantial version of the wise men story. Brent Landau, a professor of religious studies at the University of Oklahoma and an expert in ancient biblical languages, found references to a text about the wise men in writings from the Middle Ages and learned that a collector in the 18th century had discovered in a Turkish monastery a manuscript called "the Revelation of the Magi" with a narrative about the wise men. He gave it to the Vatican Library, where the document, written on vellum, a type of parchment made of animal skin, remains archived away in virtual obscurity. As part of his doctoral dissertation at Harvard Divinity School, Landau spent seven years translating and analyzing the text, written in Syriac, a dialect of Aramaic used by early Christians throughout the Middle East and Asia — and which he happened to be studying. He worked from both a 1927 published text in Syriac and the original document at the Vatican. Landau's book, Revelation of the Magi: The Lost Tale of the Wise Men's Journey to Bethlehem describes the Magi as an ancient mystical sect descended from Seth, the pious and virtuous third son of Adam and Eve. From Seth they inherited a prophecy of "a star of indescribable brightness" someday appearing and "heralding the birth of God in human form." This same star had initially hovered over the Tree of Life in the Garden of Eden.

[The Crow]

Just finished Morton Smith's "Jesus the Magician" recently. His take is that Matthew's story of the visiting magi is partially influenced "by the visit of Tiridates and his train to Nero that culminated in their reverencing him as a god" (p.131), to which he refers to Dio Cassius LXIII.5.2. Later he concludes that the story was created as a means of establishing Jesus' authority over the magi.

Thanks. Will have to check that one out.

[The Crow]

Just finished Morton Smith's "Jesus the Magician" recently. His take is that Matthew's story of the visiting magi is partially influenced "by the visit of Tiridates and his train to Nero that culminated in their reverencing him as a god" (p.131), to which he refers to Dio Cassius LXIII.5.2. Later he concludes that the story was created as a means of establishing Jesus' authority over the magi.

That's interesting, toejam. It may help The Crow with his question in the OP. Looking at Wiki:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tiridates_I_of_Armenia

• The visit of Tiridates I, an event that greatly impressed contemporaries, apparently was adapted by Christians to become the story of the adoration of the Christ Child by the Three Magi.[37] The Christian legend changed Rome into Bethlehem, the birthplace of the Ruler of the coming Kingdom of God, and replaced Tiridates I with that contemporary king who was already connected with Christianity through the Acts of St. Thomas: Gondophares, otherwise known as Kaspar.[38]

References:
[37] A. Dietrich, „“Die Weisen aus dem Morgenlande“, Zeitschrift für die Neutestamentliche Wissenschaft, Bd. III, 1902, S.1-14; cited in J. Duchesne-Guillemin, “Die Drei Weisen aus dem Morgenlande und die Anbetung der Zeit”, Antaios, Vol. VII, 1965, p. 234-252, p.245.
[38] Ernst Herzfeld, Archaeological History of Iran, London, Oxford University Press for the British Academy, 1935, pp.65-66.

Tiridates huh? Appears theres more to this than meets the eye. Thanks Don.

[The Crow]

The Revelation of the Magi
https://www.academia.edu/207910/The_Sag ... Apocryphon

The Magi, originally Sethians, get converted to Christianity - An entertaining story of the Magi, their history, their role in attending the birth of the Jesus Star, and their ultimate conversion to Christianity in a far-off land by Thomas Judas (of great fame in his "Acts of Thomas" where he converts the Indians from Hinduism and Buddhism). Why the Magi were required to be converted from their tradition to Christianity is rhetorical.

Also see: http://usatoday30.usatoday.com/yourlife ... -men_N.htm

• Now, a first-ever English translation and detailed analysis of a little-known eighth-century manuscript of a story probably written in the second or third century uncovers a far more substantial version of the wise men story. Brent Landau, a professor of religious studies at the University of Oklahoma and an expert in ancient biblical languages, found references to a text about the wise men in writings from the Middle Ages and learned that a collector in the 18th century had discovered in a Turkish monastery a manuscript called "the Revelation of the Magi" with a narrative about the wise men. He gave it to the Vatican Library, where the document, written on vellum, a type of parchment made of animal skin, remains archived away in virtual obscurity. As part of his doctoral dissertation at Harvard Divinity School, Landau spent seven years translating and analyzing the text, written in Syriac, a dialect of Aramaic used by early Christians throughout the Middle East and Asia — and which he happened to be studying. He worked from both a 1927 published text in Syriac and the original document at the Vatican. Landau's book, Revelation of the Magi: The Lost Tale of the Wise Men's Journey to Bethlehem describes the Magi as an ancient mystical sect descended from Seth, the pious and virtuous third son of Adam and Eve. From Seth they inherited a prophecy of "a star of indescribable brightness" someday appearing and "heralding the birth of God in human form." This same star had initially hovered over the Tree of Life in the Garden of Eden.

Bookmarked that first link. Appreciate that. Will have to read through it more later.