No evidence for Bethlehem of Judea early 1st C

[MrMacSon]

.
This Abstract of a 2005 article is interesting -

Where was Jesus Born?

• <snip>

I had never before questioned the assumption that Jesus was born in Bethlehem in Judea. But in the early 1990s, as an archaeologist working for the IAA [Israel Antiquities Authority], I was contracted to perform some salvage excavations around building and infrastructure projects in a small rural community in the Galilee. When I started work, some of the people who lived around the site told me how Jesus was really born there, not in the south. Intrigued, I researched the archaeological evidence for Bethlehem in Judea at the time of Jesus and found nothing. This was very surprising, as Herodian remains should be the first thing one should find. What was even more surprising is what archaeologists had already uncovered and what I was to discover over the next 11 years of excavation at the small rural site - Bethlehem of Galilee.

Aviram Oshri is a senior archaeologist with the Israel Antiquities Authority

http://archive.archaeology.org/0511/abs ... jesus.html - Archaeology Vol 58 N0 6, November/December 2005

[DCHindley]

Hey Mister,

While the ruins of an ancient village in Judea that can safely be identified as the "Bethlehem" has not been found, so far, I do not think that this requires us to give up on the idea entirely.

I believe that a Bethlehem in Judea is mentioned a couple times in the Old Testament, so there is a likelihood that it did at one time exist. Whether it existed in 1st century CE is another matter. As early Christians were very good at quote mining the OT, they could have made Jesus conform to what they thought scriptures predicted about him when writing the NT gospels.

1) First, there may be already excavated or at least identified archeological remains of a village that have been misidentified as some other village. 19th century Christian writers were quick to "identify" slews of tells as villages in the bible. Read any bible dictionary.

2) Two, the village may have been too small to leave a big footprint and/or otherwise has remained undiscovered. Do we really think we've completely mapped out every village in Judea? What about ones under existing towns or villages now known by different names?

DCH

.
This Abstract of a 2005 article is interesting -

Where was Jesus Born?

• <snip>

I had never before questioned the assumption that Jesus was born in Bethlehem in Judea. But in the early 1990s, as an archaeologist working for the IAA [Israel Antiquities Authority], I was contracted to perform some salvage excavations around building and infrastructure projects in a small rural community in the Galilee. When I started work, some of the people who lived around the site told me how Jesus was really born there, not in the south. Intrigued, I researched the archaeological evidence for Bethlehem in Judea at the time of Jesus and found nothing. This was very surprising, as Herodian remains should be the first thing one should find. What was even more surprising is what archaeologists had already uncovered and what I was to discover over the next 11 years of excavation at the small rural site - Bethlehem of Galilee.

Aviram Oshri is a senior archaeologist with the Israel Antiquities Authority

http://archive.archaeology.org/0511/abs ... jesus.html - Archaeology Vol 58 N0 6, November/December 2005

[MrMacSon]

.
While the ruins of an ancient village in Judea that can safely be identified as the "Bethlehem" has not been found, so far, I do not think that this requires us to give up on the idea entirely.

I believe that a Bethlehem in Judea is mentioned a couple times in the Old Testament, so there is a likelihood that it did at one time exist. Whether it existed in 1st century CE is another matter. As early Christians were very good at quote mining the OT, they could have made Jesus conform to what they thought scriptures predicted about him when writing the NT gospels.

1) First, there may be already excavated or at least identified archeological remains of a village that have been misidentified as some other village. 19th century Christian writers were quick to "identify" slews of tells as villages in the bible. Read any bible dictionary.

2) Two, the village may have been too small to leave a big footprint and/or otherwise has remained undiscovered. Do we really think we've completely mapped out every village in Judea? What about ones under existing towns or villages now known by different names?

Sure, but it kind of parallels the no-known-1st-C-Nazareth situation; and one might expect both places to have been established as sacred-sites (churches/Christian-'temples'?) or places for pilgrimages by early-Christians?? ie. well-established places of worship?

As far as mentions in the OT, I understand some parts of the OT were still being 'finalised' up to the 2nd C, so there could be some literary alignment of the NT with the OT?

[steve43]

Didn't we just go through this with Nazareth?

[DCHindley]

... one might expect both places to have been established as sacred-sites (churches/Christian-'temples'?) or places for pilgrimages by early-Christians?? ie. well-established places of worship?

Strangely, by the time gentile followers of Jesus teaching realized they were "Christians" they had no firm idea of the sect's early history or even beliefs. So, no shrines, sacred sites, pilgrimages, nothing. It's almost as though they were hanging around the periphery of where the real action was going on, and when the war of 66-74 CE crippled Jewish Christianity, they found their own way and reinterpreted what Jesus was all about, turning a messianic figure into a divine redeemer.

As far as mentions in the OT, I understand some parts of the OT were still being 'finalised' up to the 2nd C, so there could be some literary alignment of the NT with the OT?

Those would be books like Daniel and Ezra/Nehemiah, not the books that Christians used to quote mine. Most all of that came from the Law, Prophets and Psalms.

DCH

[Kris]

What does the writer mean when he says "Bethlehem of Galilee"? Does he mean that there was a Bethlehem in this region as well? Sorry, perhaps I am just dense though and he is being sarcastic. Or is he saying Galilee is where Jesus was born? Anyway, I am confused.

[andrewcriddle]

What does the writer mean when he says "Bethlehem of Galilee"? Does he mean that there was a Bethlehem in this region as well? Sorry, perhaps I am just dense though and he is being sarcastic. Or is he saying Galilee is where Jesus was born? Anyway, I am confused.

There is a place in Galilee called Bethlehem.

Andrew Criddle

[Ulan]

I had looked into this some time ago. There's slightly more to it than the quote says. I'm talking from memory now, so the dates may be slightly off. The archaeological record lists Bethlehem as a rich site for a time when it existed as a city from 1200-550 BC. Then there's basically nothing until 600 CE, except for the immediate area around the cave that Christianity venerates as Jesus' birthplace, which was chosen by Emperor Constantin's wife as site for the Church of Nativity, as local shepherds pointed her to that cave.

The cave was at some point used as a holy site for Adonis/Tammuz, but it's unclear whether that was just an intermezzo with regard to Christian use or pre-existent. It is clear that Justin Martyr knew of the cave story, and the Infancy Gospel of James relates it too, together with the visit of midwives and hiding of Jesus from Herod the Great in a feeding trough. Unrelated, but some stories never get old (I just visited the Idaean Cave a few days ago).

Of course, I see DCHindley's caveats. You never know what exists below existing houses.

[bcedaifu]

and when the war of 66-74 CE crippled Jewish Christianity, they found their own way and reinterpreted what Jesus was all about, turning a messianic figure into a divine redeemer.

Jewish Christianity?
evidence please...
I hope you are not referring here to "Ebionists", mispronounced and misspelled as Ebionites, a perjorative term. The Greek word is Ebionist, referring to followers of "Ebion", a Hebrew name meaning simply poor. This is not too far off the track of chrest vs christ, the good versus the anointed. Of course, everyone with adequate funds, was anointed in those days, because olive oil was used as a disinfectant against lice.

There exists no evidence of xyz...christianity, prior to mid second century AT THE EARLIEST.

If you have actual physical evidence, to the contrary, please furnish a link. Thanks. No Jew, in my opinion, in any century, would commit blasphemy by acknowledging that YHWH needed, sought, or created a son.

[Kris]

So what do people think this might mean with regard to the argument of a historical versus myth Jesus? Anything at all? I don't know Israeli geography that well, but would this other Bethlehem still be considered to be in Judea? Because supposedly David was born in the Bethlehem of judea, right?