Mark 8:24: Looking men as trees and a king

Discussion about the New Testament, apocrypha, gnostics, church fathers, Christian origins, historical Jesus or otherwise, etc.
Stephan Huller
Posts: 3009
Joined: Tue Apr 29, 2014 12:59 pm

Re: Mark 8:24: Looking men as trees and a king

Post by Stephan Huller »

No there is a difference. This isn't just a difference of opinion on Atwill. You and Atwill haven't demonstrated any reason to think Josephus (a) was before Mark or (b) that Mark used Josephus. And why Josephus and not Justus or a host of other texts from the period that haven't survived? This fixation with Josephus is stupid and betrays a small intellect.
Charles Wilson
Posts: 2100
Joined: Thu Apr 03, 2014 8:13 am

Re: Mark 8:24: Looking men as trees and a king

Post by Charles Wilson »

Stephan Huller wrote:This fixation with Josephus is stupid and betrays a small intellect.
I guess I'll have to remove all of the Tacitus, Suetonius and Dio stuff from my work in order to make it conform to your narrow consideration of material you haven't read and know nothing about.

Bye, Hasmoneans.
Bye-bye Plutarch.
Bye-Bye Jabnit. No more Piyyutim for you.

Bye-bye.

CW
Solo
Posts: 156
Joined: Sat Oct 05, 2013 9:10 am

Re: Mark 8:24: Looking men as trees and a king

Post by Solo »

Kunigunde Kreuzerin wrote: 3) the first healing of a blind man at Bethsaida

Mark 8:24
καὶ ἀναβλέψας ἔλεγεν, Βλέπω τοὺς ἀνθρώπους ὅτι ὡς δένδρα ὁρῶ περιπατοῦντας.
And having looked up he said, I look the men, for as trees I see [them] walking around.

first step: look (βλέπω - blepó) the men as trees (δένδρα - dendra)
second step: see (ὁρῶ a form of ὁράω - horaó) them walk around (περιπατοῦντας - peripatountas)

alluding to two texts
Jotham's Parable in Judges 9 – the trees went out to anoint (LXX: χρῖσαι - chrisai) a king over them
Nebuchadnezzar's dream in Daniel 4 - about himself as a tree

two steps in Daniel 4
first step Daniel 4,10 – the great king Nebuchadnezzar looked like a great tree (LXX: δένδρον - dendron)
second step Daniel 4,29 – after walking around (περιπατῶν – peripatōn) he has been judged and must suffer (but has faith and comes to greater glory)4) After the healing of the blind man the disciples have taken the first step, Peter confesses

As the trees they are now looking for a king to anoint (LXX-Jugdes 9,8: χρῖσαι – chrisai) him and Jesus looked like a king (Nebuchadnezzar's great tree) for them. Mark 8:29 “You are the Christ (Χριστός – Christos).”
I like the Jotham's parable parallel a lot, Kunigunde. I think you may well be right. My interpretation of the trees the blind man sees at first is that they relate to the work of the "carpenter" in Isa 44 who worships wooden idols, and cuts down trees for that purpose.
Isa 43:14-20 wrote: The artificer (τέκτων) having chosen a piece of wood, marks it out with a rule, and fits it with glue, and makes it as the form of a man, and as the beauty of a man, to set it up in the house. 14 He cuts wood out of the forest, which the Lord planted, [even] a pine tree, and the rain made it grow, 15 that it might be for men to burn: and having taken part of it he warms himself; yea, they burn part of it, and bake loaves thereon; and [of] the rest they make for themselves gods, and they worship them. 16 Half thereof he burns in the fire, and with half of it he bakes loaves on the coals; and having roasted flesh on it he eats, and is satisfied, and having warmed himself he says, I am comfortable, for I have warmed myself, and have seen the fire. 17 And the rest he makes a graven god, and worships, and prays, saying, Deliver me; for thou art my God. 18 They have no understanding to perceive; for they have been blinded so that they should not see with their eyes, nor perceive with their heart. (οὐκ ἔγνωσαν φρονῆσαι, ὅτι ἀπημαυρώθησαν τοῦ βλέπειν τοῖς ὀφθαλμοῖς αὐτῶν καὶ τοῦ νοῆσαι τῇ καρδίᾳ αὐτῶν) 19 And one has not considered in his mind, nor known in his understanding, that he has burnt up half of it in the fire, and baked loaves on the coals thereof and has roasted and eaten flesh, and of the rest of it he has made an abomination, and they worship it. 20 Know thou that their heart is ashes, and they err, and no one is able to deliver his soul: see, ye will not say, [There is a] lie in my right hand.
So, what I believe Mark wanted with the Bethsaida cure of blindness was to argue that the Nazarene Jesus himself (as the carpenter) was responsible for the idolatry (of Christ) among his entourage and therefore a second intervention was necessary via repentance (the rest of Isaiah's chapter) to correct the false vision. But I was stumped by the image of "trees walking (about)". That obviously was not from Isaiah. The parable of Jotham seems to do the job just fine.

Best,
Jiri
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