Mark 8:24: Looking men as trees and a king

[Kunigunde Kreuzerin]

Below, the Greek verbs are translated concordant

βλέπω (blepó) - look
ὁράω (horaó) - see

1) Two steps to a perfect seeing in GMark

Mark 4:12a
ἵνα βλέποντες βλέπωσιν καὶ μὴ ἴδωσιν
looking they might look and not see;

first step: look - βλέποντες (a form of βλέπω - blepó)
second step: see - ἴδωσιν (a form of ὁράω - horaó)


2) The disciples are completely blind. They do not look (βλέπω - blepó). They need to take the first step.

Mark 8:18a
ὀφθαλμοὺς ἔχοντες οὐ βλέπετε
Eyes having, not do you look?

first step: βλέπετε (a form of βλέπω – blepó)


3) the first healing of a blind man at Bethsaida

Mark 8:24
καὶ ἀναβλέψας ἔλεγεν, Βλέπω τοὺς ἀνθρώπους ὅτι ὡς δένδρα ὁρῶ περιπατοῦντας.
And having looked up he said, I look the men, for as trees I see [them] walking around.

first step: look (βλέπω - blepó) the men as trees (δένδρα - dendra)
second step: see (ὁρῶ a form of ὁράω - horaó) them walk around (περιπατοῦντας - peripatountas)

alluding to two texts
Jotham's Parable in Judges 9 – the trees went out to anoint (LXX: χρῖσαι - chrisai) a king over them
Nebuchadnezzar's dream in Daniel 4 - about himself as a tree

two steps in Daniel 4
first step Daniel 4,10 – the great king Nebuchadnezzar looked like a great tree (LXX: δένδρον - dendron)
second step Daniel 4,29 – after walking around (περιπατῶν – peripatōn) he has been judged and must suffer (but has faith and comes to greater glory)


4) After the healing of the blind man the disciples have taken the first step, Peter confesses

As the trees they are now looking for a king to anoint (LXX-Jugdes 9,8: χρῖσαι – chrisai) him and Jesus looked like a king (Nebuchadnezzar's great tree) for them. Mark 8:29 “You are the Christ (Χριστός – Christos).”


5) temptation and resistance

Jesus will walk around (Mark 11:27) in the temple, will been judged and must suffer, but at Peters confession he has faith

Mark 8:33 “Get behind me, Satan! For you are not setting your mind on the things of God, but on the things of man.”

first step: things of man
second step: things of God

matching Daniel 4

[Stephan Huller]

The sentence about the trees in Mark makes no sense in Greek. Black as I remember appeals to Aramaic. But Greek does not seem to be the original language. If you fiddle around with substitutions you can make it say "I see people that I see walking like trees" but this is silly. Something happened here.

[Charles Wilson]

The sentence about the trees in Mark makes no sense in Greek. Black as I remember appeals to Aramaic. But Greek does not seem to be the original language. If you fiddle around with substitutions you can make it say "I see people that I see walking like trees" but this is silly. Something happened here.

Titus happened here.

Josephus, Wars..., 5, 3, 2:

"But Titus, intending to pitch his camp nearer to the city than Scopus, placed as many of his choice horsemen and footmen as he thought sufficient opposite to the Jews, to prevent their sallying out upon them, while he gave orders for the whole army to level the distance, as far as the wall of the city. So they threw down all the hedges and walls which the inhabitants had made about their gardens and groves of trees, and cut down all the fruit trees that lay between them and the wall of the city, and filled up all the hollow places and the chasms, and demolished the rocky precipices with iron instruments; and thereby made all the place level from Scopus to Herod's monuments, which adjoined to the pool called the Serpent's Pool..."

This episode is one of deception and it is Titus who makes the blind see that It really is the end, even if some of the blind happen to be of Roman Origin. This, BTW continues a thread that Titus, who did not need Informants as Domitian did, can "divine" what is in the hearts of men.

CW

[Stephan Huller]

Do you really believe that this is any way connected with what Mark is writing about? That's madness.

[yalla]

"Saint Mark' D. Nineham, Pelican NT Commentaries UK 1975

Commentary on "Mark" 8.24 pp 216-219

"As for the pagan parallels, most scholars see them ... as suggesting that the 2 stories [7.31-37 is the other] 'were developed, if not originated, in the syncretistic atmosphere
of the Hellenistic world" ....
The incidents both have close parallels in Hellenistic healing stories.*

A fairly close Hellenistic parallel can be cited from an inscription revording a cure in the Temple of Asclepios at Epidaurus [Dittenberger "Sylloge Inscr. Graec, 111,1168]
A certain Alcetas of Helice was cured of blindness by the god and 'the first things he saw were the trees in the Temple precincts" page 219.


* Nineham comments on the 'gestures' in both incidents as 'known to have formed part of the healing techniques of contemporary wonder workers" -
"the use of saliva is widely attested" -Vespasian in Tacitus "History" 4.81. - 'the look toward heaven, groan are 'recommended in several magical texts as a potent action". pages 203- 204

[Kunigunde Kreuzerin]

"Saint Mark' D. Nineham, Pelican NT Commentaries UK 1975
A fairly close Hellenistic parallel can be cited from an inscription revording a cure in the Temple of Asclepios at Epidaurus [Dittenberger "Sylloge Inscr. Graec, 111,1168]
A certain Alcetas of Helice was cured of blindness by the god and 'the first things he saw were the trees in the Temple precincts" page 219.

The inscription is of a stele with many inscriptions of healings. The wording is

Alcetas of Halieis. This blind man saw a dream. It seemed to him that the god came up to him and with his fingers opened his eyes, and that he first saw the trees in the sanctuary. At daybreak he walked out sound.

Note the differences. Alcetas saw the trees in a dream. The trees in the Asclepeion are holy. To me the parallel would be a blind man healed in Lourdes, who sees first the Virgin Mary in a vision. It´s simple. Mark´s blind man saw not trees, but "the men" as trees walking around. Sounds like a painting of Salvador Dalí

And for the spitting personally I would take a look at Numbers 12,14

[Kunigunde Kreuzerin]

The sentence about the trees in Mark makes no sense in Greek. ... But Greek does not seem to be the original language. If you fiddle around with substitutions you can make it say "I see people that I see walking like trees" but this is silly. Something happened here.

Absolutely correct (based on my limited knowledge). But this is fine for my reading.

[Charles Wilson]

Do you really believe that this is any way connected with what Mark is writing about? That's madness.

Wars..., 5, 3, 4:

" "Truly," says Titus, "the laws of war cannot but groan heavily, as will my father also himself, when he shall be informed of this wound that hath been given us, since he who is grown old in wars did never make so great a mistake. Our laws of war do also ever inflict capital punishment on those that in the least break into good order, while at this time they have seen an entire army run into disorder. However, those that have been so insolent shall be made immediately sensible, that even they who conquer among the Romans without orders for fighting are to be under disgrace." When Titus had enlarged upon this matter before the commanders, it appeared evident that he would execute the law against all those that were concerned; so these soldiers' minds sunk down in despair, as expecting to be put to death, and that justly and quickly. However, the other legions came round about Titus, and entreated his favor to these their fellow soldiers, and made supplication to him, that he would pardon the rashness of a few, on account of the better obedience of all the rest; and promised for them that they should make amends for their present fault, by their more virtuous behavior for the time to come..."

Mark 8: 25 (RSV):

[25] Then again he laid his hands upon his eyes; and he looked intently and was restored, and saw everything clearly.

Not madness at all, SH. Jesus is not Titus but his stories are melded into the Story of the Temple Slaughter, f'rinstance, to provide a Literary Story that covers a lot of material. Domitian took the Glory of Titus and constructed the story around Domitian's exploits, deprecating the Baptism of John as being inferior to the Baptism of the Holy Spirit. And so on...

Not madness at all.

CW

[Stephan Huller]

But this doesn't help us understand the story at all. It doesn't stand on its own as an argument. Instead it is little more than an ornament on the silly practice that Joe Atwill initiated of 'matching' things in Josephus with things in the New Testament - as if Josephus was used as 'scripture' by the original evangelist. If you buy into this system it all makes perfect sense. However proving that this is the case is utterly problematic. First prove that Josephus was used as scripture by the original evangelist (not 'Luke'), then make the case that this section of Mark should be applied to this 'scriptural passage' in Josephus as its source. But this, as I said, is an utterly silly hypothesis. Josephus was written after the gospel not before.

[Charles Wilson]

1. First, the higher level Form Criticism:

But this doesn't help us understand the story at all.

Does to.
Does not.
To, to, to.
Not, not, not.

I WIN!!!

2.

It doesn't stand on its own as an argument. Instead it is little more than an ornament on the silly practice that Joe Atwill initiated of 'matching' things in Josephus with things in the New Testament - as if Josephus was used as 'scripture' by the original evangelist.

I agree that this passage does not "stand on its own" as an argument. It isn't supposed to. It gives weight to the entire argument. It is here that I believe you misunderstand Atwill. Atwill took great pains to show alignment and sequence. The criticism of Atwill here is that he misuses Statistics to show that all of these agreements could not have happened by chance. I take no stand on whether, at the end of the argument, Atwill has misused Statistics or not. His Work has great explanatory effect. I try to separate from Atwill from time to time and I do so now. Given that Atwill is correct, this Passage Appears to fit into his Scheme quite well. In the totality of what I see, there's little doubt that the Healing of the Blind Man refers to Titus. To consider this makes you deathly sick. So it goes.

If you buy into this system it all makes perfect sense. However proving that this is the case is utterly problematic. First prove that Josephus was used as scripture by the original evangelist (not 'Luke'), then make the case that this section of Mark should be applied to this 'scriptural passage' in Josephus as its source. But this, as I said, is an utterly silly hypothesis.

I cannot accept your formulation in the just above quote but the truth is, if you "Buy into..." this System, you are left without Perfect Sense. You must get to other Source Material to try to piece it all together. Dreaded Speculation. Atwill is a Pure Greekie in all of this and a simple Puzzle such as " 'immr-Yah" - "Lamb of God" - or "You must be born again" requires getting into other cultures and languages. Do you see any Latinisms in your work SH? I'm looking at a couple. 'N why did Mark mention the "Fourth Watch"? On and on and on...

Josephus was written after the gospel not before.

Ummm...I don't think so. We''ll never agree there either. Who was that "Holy Spirit" guy that Mark talks about? 'N what was that "Damnatio Memoriae" about, anyway?

But...Hey! You're looking at some early stuff and you said you would not do that so there's hope

CW