Marcion's Gospel, Luke & Josephus

Discussion about the New Testament, apocrypha, gnostics, church fathers, Christian origins, historical Jesus or otherwise, etc.
User avatar
MrMacSon
Posts: 8881
Joined: Sat Oct 05, 2013 3:45 pm

Marcion's Gospel, Luke & Josephus

Post by MrMacSon »

Marcion's canon consisted of eleven books:
  • the Euangelion, or the Gospel of the Lord, consisting of ten sections that also appear later in the Gospel of Luke; ... and
  • the Apostolikon: ten Pauline epistles
    • > not "the Pastorals" and not Hebrews;
      > according to the Muratonian canon, the Apostolikon included a pseudo-Paulian epistle to the Alexandrians, & an epistle to the Laodiceans*
It has been discussed & debated whether
  • .(i) Marcion revised a previously-existing Gospel of Luke to fit his own agenda, ... or
    (ii) whether Marcion's "Gospel of the Lord" pre-dated the Gospel of Luke
    • (which raises the question of whether Marcion's Gospel of the Lord was a basis for the Gospel of Luke)
It has been proposed that aspects of the Gospel of Luke has some basis in works of Josephus -
I presume that refers to Luke 24:13-32

Now the TF is part of Antiquities of the Jews which is thought to have been written 93-4 AD/CE


Are there any indications of relationships between any of the Marcion texts and Jospehus?

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

* Mead, GRS. Gospel of Marcion Fragments of a Faith Forgotten, London and Benares, 1900; 3rd Edition 1931
.
Stephan Huller
Posts: 3009
Joined: Tue Apr 29, 2014 12:59 pm

Re: Marcion's Gospel, Luke & Josephus

Post by Stephan Huller »

Marcion's canon consisted of eleven books:
How do we know this to be true? We only know the barest of details about the sect. Don't listen to overconfident scholars. All that is certain is a general division of two sections of the codex (even this isn't certain but let's assume it was a codex) - i.e. 'the Gospel' and 'the Apostle.' Beyond this, there is only the barest speculation possible.
Stephan Huller
Posts: 3009
Joined: Tue Apr 29, 2014 12:59 pm

Re: Marcion's Gospel, Luke & Josephus

Post by Stephan Huller »

.(i) Marcion revised a previously-existing Gospel of Luke to fit his own agenda, ... or
(ii) whether Marcion's "Gospel of the Lord" pre-dated the Gospel of Luke
(which raises the question of whether Marcion's Gospel of the Lord was a basis for the Gospel of Luke)
Matthias Klinghardt is going to put an end to this waste of time debate. Of course the Marcionite gospel was first. Why would the Marcionites have taken a middle second century text like Luke and corrupted that text rather than Mark or Matthew? Marcion's gospel then the rest including Luke.
Bernard Muller
Posts: 3964
Joined: Tue Oct 15, 2013 6:02 pm
Contact:

Re: Marcion's Gospel, Luke & Josephus

Post by Bernard Muller »

Hi Stephan,
Something to consider:
Three arguments in favour of proving Marcion's gospel (of the Lord) was written after Luke's gospel:
http://historical-jesus.info/53.html
Cordially,Bernard
I believe freedom of expression should not be curtailed
Stephan Huller
Posts: 3009
Joined: Tue Apr 29, 2014 12:59 pm

Re: Marcion's Gospel, Luke & Josephus

Post by Stephan Huller »

Marcion, active in the Christian world from around 130, had a gospel called 'gospel of the Lord'.
But you ignore Clement and Marutha and Papias. Marcion was dated to the apostolic era. These sources are not as hostile towards Marcion as Irenaeus (and Tertullian). Why trust the most bigoted witness against a subject as the most reliable source? Silly.
This shorter gospel (gMarcion)
Show me one ancient source that says that the gospel was 'short.' Ephrem and the Diatessaronic tradition (and Tertullian's source) assume the text was Diatessaronic and thus 'longer' than a canonical gospel.
certainly reflects Marcion's beliefs: little Judaism, Jesus as Son of the ultimate God (not the lesser god of the Jews) and Jesus, when on earth, having an "instant" docetist body.
Don't understand the use of the terms 'little' and 'instant'
Of course, Marcion would not say he wrote the gospel,
Where do you get this information from? Often times the text is referred to as 'Marcion's gospel' and the like. We don't know anything. Just assumptions and guesswork based on our inherited tradition.
more so because he kept Jesus predicting the fall of Jerusalem (in 70).
Or did Jesus actually say the words Jews attribute to him (wrongly) in Mark i.e. 14:58 "We heard him say, ‘I will destroy this temple made with human hands and in three days will build another, not made with hands.’” 59 Yet even then their testimony did not agree." This section in Mark has been edited from an original text which actually had Jesus say "I will destroy this temple" etc. You surely can't believe that what we have is original.
Also, he was likely to contend his gospel was redacted earlier than the others.
Don't understand the English or what the assumptions are based upon.
Unfortunaly, we do not have a copy of Marcion's gospel, but because of Tertullian's 'Against Marcion' and Epiphanius' 'Panarion', reconstructions had been attempted but cannot be definitive, by reason of not having enough accurate informations.
Agreed. But don't exclude the testimony of the Diatessaronic witnesses. The gospel was Diatessaronic cf. Casey's article.

However, I found three short passages in gMarcion which were fairly well witnessed, and show significant differences with the corresponding gLuke verses. Let's examine them and ask ourselves: did Marcion write his gospel from gLuke (case 1) or was gLuke an elaboration from gMarcion (case 2)?
2) Lk 16:17 "And it is easier for heaven and earth to pass away than for one tittle of the law to fail." NKJV
gMarcion "But it is easier for heaven and earth to pass away, ... than one tittle of my [Jesus] words to fail." http://www.gnosis.org/library/marcion/Gospel4.html

Case 1: The change is easy to explain: Marcion was light years away from accepting compliance with the Law of Moses.
Why don't you first attempt to figure out what a 'tittle' is before you go on to assume 'compliance' with the Law. What is a 'tittle' of the Law? Notice that 'tittle' is now associated with 'words' (oral) rather than written words on page. There were many Jews who held the Ten Commandments only to have holiness, that Moses wrote the 603 other commandments. Your opinions about Judaism lack sophistication. How do you know what is and isn't possible within Judaism (and thus for a 'Jew' to believe). You don't know enough to have your beliefs carry any weight.
But what about gLuke? Certainly the gospel has a Gentile outlook (2:29-32, 7:4-10), yet not very pronounced.
Again more superficiality. I don't know how much more of this I can take.
However the same saying appears also in gMatthew (5:18), but not in gMark, and therefore would be part of Q, which "Luke" felt compelled to include, even when it hurts (another example is Lk 14:26). See here for the dating of gMatthew (& therefore the latest dates for the completion of Q). See here for the existence and dating of Q.
No I won't go to any of these pages because you don't have enough knowledge about what is and isn't possible within contemporary Judaism to have established these artificial distinctions which you then turn around and use to 'disprove' Marcion. It's all stupid and worthless.
Case 2: Why would "Luke" modify a verse from gMarcion (when it was very acceptable for the author) in order to comply with gMatthew (with a clear Jewish outlook)?
That's very unlikely.
Oh please NO MORE!!! It's like watching cats try and use a typewriter. NO MORE OPINIONS ABOUT JEWS FROM PEOPLE WHO DON'T KNOW ANYTHING ABOUT JEWS OR JEWISH RELIGIOUS HISTORY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Let me give you some advice. Jesus argument about divorce and the sacredness of one man and woman is shared by the literature from Qumran literature. It is based on the assumption that some commandments were God-given and others given by man (Moses). Similarly Moses gave the commandment about the sanctity of circumcision. It was human given not God given. If Irenaeus made this position appear to be 'anti-Jewish' that would be one thing. But Irenaeus demonstrates that the Marcionite opinions were in keeping with the Judaism of Philo (in terms of the division of the godhead) and Tertullian and Ephrem accuse Marcion of being Jewish-friendly. I can't think of an ancient writer who says that Marcion hated Jews. In fact what Tertullian writes against the Jews is also turned around against Marcion. How is this explained? If in doubt I will send you Vinzent's recent Marcion the Jew https://www.academia.edu/7547506/Marcion_the_Jew
To conclude, it is more likely Marcion modified a verse from gLuke rather than "Luke" changing it from gMarcion.
:cheeky:

I can't do this any more. But let me ask you, why would you think it reasonable to assume you have the expertise to determine Marcion's 'anti-Jewish' nature when you know absolutely nothing about Judaism. It's shocking. Why not read a book about the Jewish heresies from the period? Why not?
User avatar
MrMacSon
Posts: 8881
Joined: Sat Oct 05, 2013 3:45 pm

Re: Marcion's Gospel, Luke & Josephus

Post by MrMacSon »

Stephan Huller wrote:
Marcion's canon consisted of eleven books:
How do we know this to be true? We only know the barest of details about the sect. Don't listen to overconfident scholars. All that is certain is a general division of two sections of the codex (even this isn't certain but let's assume it was a codex) - i.e. 'the Gospel' and 'the Apostle.' Beyond this, there is only the barest speculation possible.
Fair enough. I though you put more weight on the Marcionite literature.

Stephan Huller wrote:
.(i) Marcion revised a previously-existing Gospel of Luke to fit his own agenda, ... or
(ii) whether Marcion's "Gospel of the Lord" pre-dated the Gospel of Luke
(which raises the question of whether Marcion's Gospel of the Lord was a basis for the Gospel of Luke)
Matthias Klinghardt is going to put an end to this waste of time debate. Of course the Marcionite gospel was first. Why would the Marcionites have taken a middle second century text like Luke and corrupted that text rather than Mark or Matthew? Marcion's gospel then the rest including Luke.
What do you mean By "Marcion's gospel then the rest including Luke"?
Stephan Huller
Posts: 3009
Joined: Tue Apr 29, 2014 12:59 pm

Re: Marcion's Gospel, Luke & Josephus

Post by Stephan Huller »

Now that I have stepped away from the discussion for a moment, let me rephrase what I wrote above. If, as Heschel has already demonstrated that there were Jewish groups - http://books.google.com/books?id=WAGK8G ... ce&f=false - who maintained much of the Marcionite 'antinomian' exegesis how is it tenable to argue that the Marcionite were anti-Jewish?

My contention would be that the Torah is itself structured around the idea that 'Jews' already accepted the sanctity of the ten utterances. Indeed it only says that when Moses climbs up the mountain he gets these ten things from God. The narrative doesn't even pretend that the other nonsense came down with Moses from the mountain. The idea is clearly not only that the ten commandments were God-given but - according to a critical reading PRE-EXISTENT before Ezra's writing of the narrative.

As such, he couldn't sneak in the God-given nature of circumcision or divorce because his audience knew that Moses only received ten utterances. As such the original Christian position - the Marcionite position - can be connected back to what must have been the original Jewish understanding, one which ultimately rejected any law specifically associated with Moses's authority on its own. The Karaites similarly preserve a manner of reading the Pentateuch as if Moses is actively involved as 'narrator' (or storyteller) (al-muhki) cf. Yefet ben Ali's source material http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yefet_ben_Ali

Yefet for instance sees critical parts of the Bible as reflecting Moses's - not God's - narrative http://books.google.com/books?id=ye8yAQ ... 28&f=false. According to this interpretation then the entire Torah amounts to Moses's narration of an important historical event which - at least according to some historical groups we must imagine - was alone wholly sacred.

In other words, it is possible for some to have rejected the narrative of the Pentateuch but taken the Ten Commandments to have been wholly sacred nevertheless. How so? Because in the temple the broken tablets of Moses were kept according to tradition (Talmud Bava Basra 14a). In other words, a contemporary Jew saw with his own eyes that the Sinai theophany had an independent existence from the narrative in very real terms.
Last edited by Stephan Huller on Sat Sep 27, 2014 11:09 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Stephan Huller
Posts: 3009
Joined: Tue Apr 29, 2014 12:59 pm

Re: Marcion's Gospel, Luke & Josephus

Post by Stephan Huller »

Marcion's gospel and then the rest including Luke = the canonical gospels were developed after Marcion's gospel.
User avatar
MrMacSon
Posts: 8881
Joined: Sat Oct 05, 2013 3:45 pm

Re: Marcion's Gospel, Luke & Josephus

Post by MrMacSon »

Stephan Huller wrote:Marcion's gospel and then the rest including Luke = the canonical gospels were developed after Marcion's gospel.
Cheers. That's what I thought you meant.

You have recently said you think Marcion's texts were 1st C? or reflect 1st C theology?
Stephan Huller
Posts: 3009
Joined: Tue Apr 29, 2014 12:59 pm

Re: Marcion's Gospel, Luke & Josephus

Post by Stephan Huller »

Ok. Let's be clear. In today's American media there is (a) the actual Obama of 'reality' - a slightly left of center Democratic politician who happened to be elected President and then (b) the hyper Islamo-Communist-Fascist of the right wing media. Imagine for a moment if all Western news information from this age disappeared and all we were left with is clips of right wing media to reconstruct the 45th President of the United States. That is the proper analogy for reconstructing the Marcionite tradition.
Post Reply