Bayesian Historicity

Discussion about the New Testament, apocrypha, gnostics, church fathers, Christian origins, historical Jesus or otherwise, etc.
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Leucius Charinus
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Bayesian Historicity

Post by Leucius Charinus »

I know that Carrier plugs Bayesian analysis which involves the computation of probabilities. Does anyone know whether Carrier anywhere states that the historicity of any given event in history may be expressed as a probability? I imagine this is what his whole thesis is about. So I expect that this is so. 100% = Absolutely certain historicity, 80% = Reasonably certain etc to 000% - Absolutely certain zero historicity.

But there may be other opinions.
How do others see this in their head?
Some may often see black and white.
But I suspect we have a greyscale.


How is historicity defined?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Historicity
  • Historicity is the historical actuality of persons and events, meaning the quality of being part of history as opposed to being a historical myth, legend, or fiction. Historicity focuses on the truth value of knowledge claims about the past (denoting historical actuality, authenticity, and factuality.) The historicity of a claim about the past is its factual status.
I suggest that this historical actuality can be expressed as a percentage. Are there problems with this approach and if so what are they?

For example, some problems/questions:

Is such a system (answer is a probability) capable of handling events and/or persons who are partly historical and/or partly mythical and/or partly fictional?

How is the 50% assessment to be defined?

Is there a spectrum between historical and myth and legend and fictional and can it be reflected by probability?

What are the dimensions of historicity? (Just one = Historical actuality) ... what if something is a mixture and history and fiction?
A "cobbler of fables" [Augustine]; "Leucius is the disciple of the devil" [Decretum Gelasianum]; and his books "should be utterly swept away and burned" [Pope Leo I]; they are the "source and mother of all heresy" [Photius]
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Peter Kirby
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Re: Bayesian Historicity

Post by Peter Kirby »

I finally got his book and finished it.

Carrier attempts to define a minimal historicity hypothesis and a minimal non-historicity ("mythicist") hypothesis. Each hypothesis is constructed minimally - as to cover only those assumptions that are believed (at least, by Carrier) to be consistent with the entire superset of possibilities, historicist and non-historicist, respectively, excluding only scenarios that are considered (at least, by Carrier) to be less than 0.1% likely.

One example of a scenario that Carrier believes to be less than 0.1% likely is traditional Christian realism, i.e., that the Son of God really did come down from heaven, did a bunch of miracles, and rose from the dead. So his minimal historicity hypothesis doesn't have to be consistent with that idea, as it might, for example, postulate that Jesus wasn't extremely well-known in Judea during his lifetime (as a way of comporting the hypothesis to evidence, for example, that Jesus was not widely commented on - or at all).

For reasons he doesn't really explain (much) in his book, likewise, he doesn't assign much weight to non-historicity hypotheses that involve fabrication of the New Testament by people who were not themselves in any real sense Christian, i.e., the various political conspiracy theories. They likewise shrink to a near-null probability in Carrier's estimate and thus don't factor into the deliberations further than commenting on that.

Of course he can also leave these postulates unresolved on the minimal hypothesis, but it doesn't seem that he does.

If I can sense the shape of his minimal historicity hypothesis, it is that the life of Jesus was the first in a series of developments that led to the rise of Christianity. If visions of a risen Jesus by those who knew him were the start of the resurrection of Jesus claim, then that's a historicity hypothesis. If such visions were originally believed to be of a heavenly figure, and not of a historical figure (or perhaps, a la Wells, of a quasi-historical figure of the distant past), then that's a non-historicity hypothesis.
Is such a system (answer is a probability) capable of handling events and/or persons who are partly historical and/or partly mythical and/or partly fictional?
It seems fully capable, because the affirmation of the minimal historicity hypothesis (or the minimal non-historicity hypothesis) does not entail the confirmation or disconfirmation of any more-finely-defined (and subsequently less probable) detailed explanations.

It seems that there are few basic possibilities in the thought space:

(1) Fully fictional/mythical - a serious possibility, and clearly non-historicist
(2) Fully historical - too low in probability to be considered in the calculation
(3) Partly historical, partly fictional/mythical, the non-historicist variety - if the historical inspiration only entered the stream of development at a later stage, such as the writing of the Gospels, then this would qualify as a non-historicist hypothesis
(4) Partly historical, partly fictional/mythical, the historicist variety - if the historical inspiration was actually also at the start of a chain of events that led to the formation of the Christian cult, then this would qualify as a historicist hypothesis

Analyzed this way, the question is one of cause and effect - what cause put in motion (or stood somewhere in the series of cause and effect) the eventual development of Christianity? If there were a man named Jesus in Palestine with a few followers in there, that continued to preach about him after his death, then that would be historicist. If some scenario that made that much less likely obtained, such as the idea that the earliest resurrection belief applied to a heavenly figure known only through scripture and revelation, then that would be non-historicist.
How is the 50% assessment to be defined?
Carrier seems to treat both 33% and 50% as roughly the same "epistemic worth" as an answer, based on some comments near the end of the book that regards them as both basically meaning that we are fundamentally uncertain. The threshhold for being more than simply uncertain seem to be reasonably high, with perhaps 80% probability (or 20% probability) being the bare threshhold of significance.
Is there a spectrum between historical and myth and legend and fictional and can it be reflected by probability?
Yes. There is a full probability space with the sum total value of 1, or 100%. This probability space is further subdivided into all historicity scenarios, all non-historicity scenarios (and, if any, all scenarios that avoid both historicity and non-historicity). The likelihood of non-historicity is the sum likelihood of all its scenarios, and likewise the likelihood of historicity is equal to the sum of all its scenarios (...not that these likelihoods have to be computed in this manner). Thus each historicity "scenario" is less likely than historicity itself, and of course it may have further "sub-scenarios" which, by compounding hypotheses, become ever less likely to be exactly how it happened.

A definition of the meaning of historicity is required to speak meaningfully of it, and it is this definition that would allow us to say whether any particular scenario is one of historicity or non-historicity.
What are the dimensions of historicity? (Just one = Historical actuality) ... what if something is a mixture and history and fiction?
I do believe that the essence of the "historicity" question is its binary nature - it is a yes/no proposition. It leaves open to further debate the exact details of the situation in early Christianity (without Jesus) or in the life of Jesus and what happened after (if he existed).

Because of this, Carrier essentially tables several questions that are a matter of considerable "devil in the details" debate, such as the dating of the letters of Ignatius (early 2nd century or mid 2nd century), etc. He elects to work on the assumption that either dating could be correct and attempt to discern the state of the evidence on the historicity question either way.

Now, all that said, do I agree with him? I can't say that I do. I was actually hoping for a more impressive book, particularly in those aspects that Carrier is so scrupulous to avoid - actually detailing a theory or debating some of those points of interest within historicity or (as is now his preference) non-historicity. But I suppose that would be a much longer book, and he estimates it would take 7 years of work just to do proper research on the questions of dating.

Partly this dissatisfaction is due to the fact that the native human reasoning process is intuitive, additive, and theoretical. It prefers to build a large sandcastle of assumptions about the world, only perhaps ready to tear down this or that turret if discovered to be false. Further, it loves the dovetailing of small details, "clues," and treats them as creating a whole picture that is greater (and seemingly more probable) than the mere sum of its parts (big picture thinking which, as Carrier reasons mathematically, weakens the total picture by burdening it with multiple hypotheses). Carrier's process is mathematical and artificial, even as it relies on the human intuition to weigh each individual probability involved. Worst of all, it ends on a terrible cliffhanger, leaving all the questions of interest, other than an estimate of the probability of historicity, unresolved.

On the bright side, the long list of background elements to the development of Christianity, particularly in the context of a non-historicity hypothesis, is superb and genuinely advances the theoretical framework of any non-historicity hypothesis by sketching in some of the historical context - something sorely lacking in most books of this kind.
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maryhelena
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Re: Bayesian Historicity

Post by maryhelena »

Leucius Charinus wrote:I know that Carrier plugs Bayesian analysis which involves the computation of probabilities. Does anyone know whether Carrier anywhere states that the historicity of any given event in history may be expressed as a probability? I imagine this is what his whole thesis is about. So I expect that this is so. 100% = Absolutely certain historicity, 80% = Reasonably certain etc to 000% - Absolutely certain zero historicity.

But there may be other opinions.
How do others see this in their head?
Some may often see black and white.
But I suspect we have a greyscale.


How is historicity defined?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Historicity
  • Historicity is the historical actuality of persons and events, meaning the quality of being part of history as opposed to being a historical myth, legend, or fiction. Historicity focuses on the truth value of knowledge claims about the past (denoting historical actuality, authenticity, and factuality.) The historicity of a claim about the past is its factual status.
I suggest that this historical actuality can be expressed as a percentage. Are there problems with this approach and if so what are they?

For example, some problems/questions:

Is such a system (answer is a probability) capable of handling events and/or persons who are partly historical and/or partly mythical and/or partly fictional?

How is the 50% assessment to be defined?

Is there a spectrum between historical and myth and legend and fictional and can it be reflected by probability?

What are the dimensions of historicity? (Just one = Historical actuality) ... what if something is a mixture and history and fiction?
Don't know much about all this probability Bayesian arguments - but this black and white thinking that it seems to support (in the Jesus debate) seems, to my mind, to be limiting the debate rather than widening it.

As to something being a mixture of history and fiction. Indeed...Carrier has himself brought such a scenario into play. i.e. his use of the Jesus ben Ananias Josephan figure as a model for the Markan Passion Narrative. (Carrier saying "....unless Josephus invented him, his narrative must have been famous,..) Sadly, Carrier does not seem to recognize the full implications of what he has done here. i.e. if the Jesus figure can be constructed from historical figures - there is no need, no necessity, to assume that the Jesus figure is a historicized Pauline celestial christ figure. But Carrier is wedded to the Carrier-Doherty mythicist theory so can't, as it were, follow through where the Jesus ben Ananias figure could take him. i.e. the gospel Jesus story is a mixture of historical reflections and fiction. Thus, if it's early christian origins that we are seeking - then it's the historical reflections within the gospel fiction that have the potential to open the road forward...

Carrier's book is hamstrung by the Carrier-Doherty mythicist theory: Historicity vs the Carrier-Doherty mythicist theory. It seems to be a closed shop for Carrier - other theories that might seek to demonstrate a mixture of history and fiction are not deemed to be viable. Carrier giving low probability to 'political fiction' theories, pages 53/54.

Carrier even finds fault on mythicist ideas that don't require a historicizing of a Pauline celestial christ figure: His review of Thomas Brodie's book ( Beyond the Quest for the Historical Jesus) leaves no doubt that he considers his Bayesian approach to the questions of Jesus historicity to be the correct method of discerning historicity:


Brodie on Jesus

http://freethoughtblogs.com/carrier/archives/2795

It isn’t really a good book for arguing his case. In fact, it’s terrible at that. Consequently, I cannot recommend this book to anyone who wants to see a good case for Jesus not existing. You simply will not be convinced by his treatment of that here.

However, even were he to write that hypothetical book, I still don’t think he’d have a case. Not that there isn’t a good case for the conclusion (that Jesus probably did not really exist historically as the Gospels claim). Rather, I think Brodie has come to that conclusion invalidly, from a rather weak series of arguments..
My interest is in this book’s value toward advancing the historicity debate. Assessment: it unfortunately won’t.

The non sequitur is common among myth proponents: the Gospels are obvious contrived myths, therefore Jesus didn’t exist. The premise is true (many have well proved it already, but I will marshal the best evidence in my book on this next year). But the conclusion does not follow.

Oh well - numbers do a lot to make life easy - even exciting - man on moon and all that. What numbers can't do is answer questions related to identity, ethnicity and belonging. Questions related to how we live with one another. Bayes Theorem might give answers to the easy questions - the hard questions require more, much more, than numbers can provide. And on that note......Carrier's book can leave one cold - Brodie's book provides a blanket for ones onward journey... ;)
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bcedaifu
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Re: Bayesian Historicity

Post by bcedaifu »

Richard Carrier, in MaryHelena's link, above, wrote:The non sequitur is common among myth proponents: the Gospels are obvious contrived myths, therefore Jesus didn’t exist. The premise is true (many have well proved it already, but I will marshal the best evidence in my book on this next year). But the conclusion does not follow.
Let's exchange Jesus ben Anianus with Clark Kent.

Carrier is simply wrong. Numbers have nothing to do with distinguishing historical events from fiction. An event is historical if it is real. Something which is clearly unreal, cannot be historical, by definition, irrespective of any numerical massage to the message.

Genghis Khan was reputed to have destroyed entire cities, yet, something like 20% of all people living today, in his geographic sphere of influence, bear DNA related to him. It seems a bit far fetched to argue that he laid waste to entire civilizations, but also managed to inseminate so many young women, who then survived to give birth to his offspring. Probability analysis will not help us to identify the historical reality, here. We simply do not know the distribution of truth versus fiction, in assessing Khan's life activities.

In the case of any religion, the legends acquire attributes which are no longer humanly possible, and thus require divine intervention, becoming transformed into myths, thereby. Genghis Khan was not a mythical person, and some of the legends about him, may turn out to have been accurate, but the only numbers with any meaning, in analyzing his "contribution" to the planet, are those based on population genetics, not horse racing results.

http://www.horseracing-and-bettingsyste ... eorem.html
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MrMacSon
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Re: Bayesian Historicity

Post by MrMacSon »

maryhelena wrote:Don't know much about all this probability Bayesian arguments - but this black and white thinking that it seems to support (in the Jesus debate) seems, to my mind, to be limiting the debate rather than widening it.
The use of numbers per se don't encourage black & white thinking on the question of the probability of the historicity of Jesus of Nazareth:

what does, as you have pointed out, is Carrier's two-options approach -
maryhelena wrote:Carrier's book is hamstrung by the Carrier-Doherty mythicist theory: Historicity vs the Carrier-Doherty mythicist theory. It seems to be a closed shop for Carrier - other theories that might seek to demonstrate a mixture of history and fiction are not deemed to be viable ...
I agree with what you say here -
maryhelena wrote:.... What numbers can't do is answer questions related to identity, ethnicity and belonging. Questions related to how we live with one another. Bayes Theorem might give answers to the easy questions - the hard questions require more, much more, than numbers can provide. And on that note......Carrier's book can leave one cold - Brodie's book provides a blanket for ones onward journey... ;)
I can somewhat appreciate bcedaifu's sentiments here -
bcedaifu wrote: ... Numbers have nothing to do with distinguishing historical events from fiction. An event is historical if it is real. Something which is clearly unreal, cannot be historical, by definition, irrespective of any numerical massage to the message.
... but the issues are
  • determining the probability of a presently hard-to-determine-past-event having occurred; or,
  • determining the probability of a presently hard-to-fathom, ancient-narrated-character having actually lived ...
    • ... especially when there are no suitable primary sources for them.
Determining probabilities is but one tool.
.
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maryhelena
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Re: Bayesian Historicity

Post by maryhelena »

MrMacSon wrote:
  • determining the probability of a presently hard-to-determine-past-event having occurred; or,
  • determining the probability of a presently hard-to-fathom, ancient-narrated-character having actually lived ...
    • ... especially when there are no suitable primary sources for them.
Determining probabilities is but one tool.
.
Perhaps a better tool is the one used by Thomas Brodie - literary analysis of the gospel texts. A method that, seemingly, Carrier has sought to undermine..... his negative review of Brodie's book,

Carrier:...."the Gospels are obvious contrived myths, therefore Jesus didn’t exist. The premise is true .... But the conclusion does not follow".

Methinks this is where Carrier is going wrong and why he gave a negative review of Brodie's book: One can arrive at the conclusion, as did Brodie, that the gospel Jesus is fiction by a literary approach to the gospel texts. This approach is not invalid. All it does is acknowledge the literary make-up of the gospel Jesus figure. Acknowledging the literary nature of the gospel Jesus figure is not the end but the beginning of a search for early christian origins. i.e. once that gospel figure is viewed as a literary creation - the door is open for an historical enquiry into early christian origins. The only conclusion a literary approach makes is that the Jesus figure is a literary creation. This approach rules out a historical gospel Jesus - i.e. the gospel figure of Jesus is not historical - the gospel Jesus did not exist as a historical figure.

Why does Carrier want to make the illogical assertion that, in the case of the gospel Jesus, the premise, "contrived myths", is true but the conclusion, no historical Jesus, does not follow? Yes, there could be someone else there, someone not the gospel Jesus - but that is a very different issue, a very different question that a literary analysis of the gospel texts cannot answer. That question requires a historical plus fiction approach to the gospel Jesus story.

Does Carrier really think that it's only the Carrier-Doherty mythicist theory, a theory about a historicized Pauline celestial christ figure, that can disprove the historical Jesus assumption...A theory that has no means, whatsoever, of ever being demonstrated to have any viability for a historical search for early christian origins. Dressing this theory in Bayesian fancy-dress will not save it from it's own inherent weakness.

Pauline theology/philosophy is not a substitute for an historical enquiry into early christian origins. Nor is it a reasonable argument against the Jesus historicists. An historical claim needs to be refuted via history not Pauline theology/philosophy - or Bayesian probability arguments. Always keep space for the appearance of that black swan.... ;)
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Re: Bayesian Historicity

Post by MrMacSon »

maryhelena wrote:Perhaps a better tool is the one used by Thomas Brodie - literary analysis of the gospel texts. A method that, seemingly, Carrier has sought to undermine..... his negative review of Brodie's book,

Carrier:...."the Gospels are obvious contrived myths, therefore Jesus didn’t exist. The premise is true .... But the conclusion does not follow".
  • <snip>
Why does Carrier want to make the illogical assertion that, in the case of the gospel Jesus, the premise, "contrived myths", is true but the conclusion, no historical Jesus, does not follow? Yes, there could be someone else there, someone not the gospel Jesus - but that is a very different issue, a very different question that a literary analysis of the gospel texts cannot answer.
Is there another premise There is no other premise before ""the Gospels are obvious contrived myths"? Because, if not, that is not a syllogism; not a valid argument.
maryhelena wrote:Does Carrier really think that it's only the Carrier-Doherty mythicist theory, a theory about a historicized Pauline celestial christ figure, that can disprove the historical Jesus assumption...A theory that has no means, whatsoever, of ever being demonstrated to have any viability for a historical search for early christian origins. Dressing this theory in Bayesian fancy-dress will not save it from it's own inherent weakness.

Pauline theology/philosophy is not a substitute for an historical enquiry into early christian origins. Nor is it a reasonable argument against the Jesus historicists. An historical claim needs to be refuted via history not Pauline theology/philosophy - or Bayesian probability arguments. Always keep space for the appearance of that black swan.... ;)
Paul needs to be thoroughly evaluated the same ways Jesus should be evaluated. I think someone made the comment in a recent post that reconstruction/s of the alleged Marcion texts do not mention Paul.

If that is the case, there is a basis to seriously question Paul.
Last edited by MrMacSon on Mon Sep 29, 2014 11:10 am, edited 2 times in total.
bcedaifu
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Re: Bayesian Historicity

Post by bcedaifu »

MrMacSon wrote:... but the issues are

determining the probability of a presently hard-to-determine-past-event having occurred; or,
determining the probability of a presently hard-to-fathom, ancient-narrated-character having actually lived ...
... especially when there are no suitable primary sources for them.
Determining probabilities is but one tool.
Imagine a tool, for example, a hammer. It is a good tool, right? Yes. it is. But, now here is a task: unscrew the case of your computer, to replace the motherboard. Can you use your very useful hammer?

NO. The tool employed must not only be "good", it must also be appropriate to the task at hand.

Bayes' theorem could never have been elaborated, had Bayes been handed horse racing results that had been tampered with, mutilated, damaged, and modified. The data pool available to us, in considering earliest Christianity, is precisely that kind of information. It is unreliable, therefore, no amount of mathematical "smoothing", is going to lead to meaningful result.
Wikipedia wrote:In the 4th century BC, two influential Greek philosophers, Plato and his student Aristotle, wrote works based on the geocentric model.
This is an excellent example of two marvelous scholars, with excellent mathematical skills, proficient in many disciplines, not simply philosophy or science or mathematics, but all of the above, and more besides!!! Yet, these two giants in the realm of intellectual contributions to the history of knowledge, erred, didn't they? And, it was their contemporary, Aristarchus, who proved them wrong, though, NO ONE LISTENED, until Copernikus in the 16th century CE, rediscovered the text of Aristarchus, carefully preserved by the Greek monks, who had fled Constantinople to Italy, after the muslim conquest.

Writing about history, or any other social science, using mathematics to prop up an ambiguous claim, is simply nonsense. Or, as is popularly stated, among those of us who have attempted to remove the case of our computer using a hammer: garbage in = garbage out.
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Re: Bayesian Historicity

Post by Clive »

I wonder if some ideas from clades and genetics might help.

https://www.nytimes.com/books/first/g/gee-time.html

Are there any ways of tracing statements or descriptions back to a person, and comparing the possibilities of which person or group might have been involved?

Thus Ellegard's Teacher of Righteousness, Jesus Ben Anias, Seneca, senior Roman strategists, possible originators of a celestial Christ, and the various Jesi - itinerant rabbi, wealthy educated young man, etc, would also be given weighting, depending on the strength of the equivalent of isnads.
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Re: Bayesian Historicity

Post by Peter Kirby »

While a formalized probability estimate in Bayesian terms may not be the best way to approach the subject, the alternatives practiced up to this point (such as the ever-popular "muddling through") don't have anything more to commend them. If you think GIGO applies to his efforts (and of course it does), the same principle applies (perhaps even moreso) to those who don't bother to formalize their arguments in any manner at all.
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