1 Corinthians with Iulius, Chrestus, and Kaisar for IC, XC, KC

[lclapshaw]

It's just how I learn. My background is to experiment and see what happens. And I don't have professional credentials to protect so what the hell.

Lane

Same here, that's why I like you so much

[lclapshaw]

Ok, now that we have eliminated KU=Kaisar and we feel fairly confident that XC=Chrestos as that is what comes up most often in the earliest texts viewtopic.php?f=3&t=8881 what can we say about IC possibly being Iulius Caesar?

In 1:9 we have...

9 πιστὸς ὁ (faithful) Θεὸς (God), δι’ (by) οὗ (whom) ἐκλήθητε (you were called) εἰς (into) κοινωνίαν (fellowship) τοῦ (with the) Υἱοῦ (Son) αὐτοῦ (of Him), Ἰῦ (Iulius) Χῦ (Chrestos), τοῦ (the) Κυ (Kurios) ἡμῶν (of us).

Usually translated into English as...

God is faithful, by whom we were called into communion with his son IU the XU, our KU.

Is this a deal breaker for Iulius Caesar being referred to as IC here? Does it work out in the Greek even though it doesn't seem to in the English translation? Does 1:3 help us at all here?

3 Χάρις (Goodwill) ὑμῖν (to you) καὶ (and) εἰρήνη (peace) ἀπὸ (from) Θεοῦ (God) Πατρὸς (Father) ἡμῶν (of us) καὶ (and) Κυ (the Kurios) Ἰῦ (Iulius) Χῦ (Chrestos).

[mlinssen]

Ok, now that we have eliminated KU=Kaisar and we feel fairly confident that XC=Chrestos as that is what comes up most often in the earliest texts viewtopic.php?f=3&t=8881 what can we say about IC possibly being Iulius Caesar?

In 1:9 we have...

9 πιστὸς ὁ (faithful) Θεὸς (God), δι’ (by) οὗ (whom) ἐκλήθητε (you were called) εἰς (into) κοινωνίαν (fellowship) τοῦ (with the) Υἱοῦ (Son) αὐτοῦ (of Him), Ἰῦ (Iulius) Χῦ (Chrestos), τοῦ (the) Κυ (Kurios) ἡμῶν (of us).

Usually translated into English as...

God is faithful, by whom we were called into communion with his son IU the XU, our KU.

Is this a deal breaker for Iulius Caesar being referred to as IC here? Does it work out in the Greek even though it doesn't seem to in the English translation? Does 1:3 help us at all here?

3 Χάρις (Goodwill) ὑμῖν (to you) καὶ (and) εἰρήνη (peace) ἀπὸ (from) Θεοῦ (God) Πατρὸς (Father) ἡμῶν (of us) καὶ (and) Κυ (the Kurios) Ἰῦ (Iulius) Χῦ (Chrestos).

I'm going to give you a few lessons in ancient Greek because the first and foremost answer to your question is: it depends - and you should be aware of this utterly inconvenient yet also possibly very convenient loophole in the damn language and texts

We have, in our modern languages, fairly strict rules about order and such. If a Dutchman says "after I called had been" which is very accepted in day to day lingo, he'll be burnt at the stake by the language nazis who'll accuse him of Germanism - because that's their only allowed order and our preferred order is "after I had been called".
Silly example, I know, but just get the gist please

None of all that in Latin or Greek, and to a much lesser extent Coptic. It almost seems as if some sort of pissing contest started around 500 BCE only to never be decided on: "to which crazy places can I dislocate all my syntactical elements without being accused by everyone of really being a total asshole?"

So the short message is: if you can argue for a specific word order belonging to a certain phrase order, you're in (for more arguing)

Best thing is to start with including the case before you go off, and stripping the interpretations:

πιστὸς (Faithful) ὁ (the) Θεὸς (god) δι’ (through) οὗ (whom) ἐκλήθητε (you-were-called) εἰς (into) κοινωνίαν (fellowship) τοῦ (of-the) Υἱοῦ (of-Son) αὐτοῦ (of-him) Ἰησοῦ (of-IS) Χριστοῦ (of-XS) τοῦ (of-the) Κυρίου (of-KS) ἡμῶν (of-us)

Remove all punctuation, as all of that is interpretation.
Link the English by dashes if it takes more than one word to translate.
Consult words via a biblissima lookup, and don't trust Berean nor biblehub.
Logeion is your friend as well - learn to use q, w and such to transcribe the odd Greek letters; Perseus TUFTS has the full overview but do avoid diacritics, that's for experts only and I'm not one of those

And what you're looking at right here is a fun problem that we also have: do cases extend to adverbial phrases, and in how far?
You can always pick an easier phrase to start with...

[lclapshaw]

Ok, now that we have eliminated KU=Kaisar and we feel fairly confident that XC=Chrestos as that is what comes up most often in the earliest texts viewtopic.php?f=3&t=8881 what can we say about IC possibly being Iulius Caesar?

In 1:9 we have...

9 πιστὸς ὁ (faithful) Θεὸς (God), δι’ (by) οὗ (whom) ἐκλήθητε (you were called) εἰς (into) κοινωνίαν (fellowship) τοῦ (with the) Υἱοῦ (Son) αὐτοῦ (of Him), Ἰῦ (Iulius) Χῦ (Chrestos), τοῦ (the) Κυ (Kurios) ἡμῶν (of us).

Usually translated into English as...

God is faithful, by whom we were called into communion with his son IU the XU, our KU.

Is this a deal breaker for Iulius Caesar being referred to as IC here? Does it work out in the Greek even though it doesn't seem to in the English translation? Does 1:3 help us at all here?

3 Χάρις (Goodwill) ὑμῖν (to you) καὶ (and) εἰρήνη (peace) ἀπὸ (from) Θεοῦ (God) Πατρὸς (Father) ἡμῶν (of us) καὶ (and) Κυ (the Kurios) Ἰῦ (Iulius) Χῦ (Chrestos).

I'm going to give you a few lessons in ancient Greek because the first and foremost answer to your question is: it depends - and you should be aware of this utterly inconvenient yet also possibly very convenient loophole in the damn language and texts

We have, in our modern languages, fairly strict rules about order and such. If a Dutchman says "after I called had been" which is very accepted in day to day lingo, he'll be burnt at the stake by the language nazis who'll accuse him of Germanism - because that's their only allowed order and our preferred order is "after I had been called".
Silly example, I know, but just get the gist please

None of all that in Latin or Greek, and to a much lesser extent Coptic. It almost seems as if some sort of pissing contest started around 500 BCE only to never be decided on: "to which crazy places can I dislocate all my syntactical elements without being accused by everyone of really being a total asshole?"

So the short message is: if you can argue for a specific word order belonging to a certain phrase order, you're in (for more arguing)

Best thing is to start with including the case before you go off, and stripping the interpretations:

πιστὸς (Faithful) ὁ (the) Θεὸς (god) δι’ (through) οὗ (whom) ἐκλήθητε (you-were-called) εἰς (into) κοινωνίαν (fellowship) τοῦ (of-the) Υἱοῦ (of-Son) αὐτοῦ (of-him) Ἰησοῦ (of-IS) Χριστοῦ (of-XS) τοῦ (of-the) Κυρίου (of-KS) ἡμῶν (of-us)

Remove all punctuation, as all of that is interpretation.
Link the English by dashes if it takes more than one word to translate.
Consult words via a biblissima lookup, and don't trust Berean nor biblehub.
Logeion is your friend as well - learn to use q, w and such to transcribe the odd Greek letters; Perseus TUFTS has the full overview but do avoid diacritics, that's for experts only and I'm not one of those

And what you're looking at right here is a fun problem that we also have: do cases extend to adverbial phrases, and in how far?
You can always pick an easier phrase to start with...

Just doing a systematic attempt at elimination here starting at the top until something unambiguously prevents Iulius Caesar from being IC in 1 Corinthians or it seems inconclusive at which point I move on to 2 Corinthians. Rinse, wash, repeat with the other letters until Iulius is eliminated as a candidate for IC or it proves impossible to impeach.

So far, this first example doesn't seem to be enough to remove Iulius as a candidate for IC so I will now look further into the text for something that might.

[mlinssen]

So far, this first example doesn't seem to be enough to remove Iulius as a candidate for IC so I will now look further into the text for something that might.

[EDIT: fixed typos after setting them in Jax's quote]
The sensible thing to do would be to get a baseline first: how is Julius conjugated in Greek?
Get a text from Perseus, TLG, Logeion, etc.
Or search Mason's PACE

https://penelope.uchicago.edu/josephus/ant-1.html is the first book of Antiquities; search it for Julius, Mark the entry, and continue till you have all 4 cases. Then go to PACE http://pace.hypervisions.it/york/york/s ... yout=split and see what that has

Work smart, not hard

[Jax]

So far, this first example doesn't seem to be enough to remove Iulius as a candidate for IC so I will now look further into the text for something that might.

The sensible thing to do would be to get a baseline first: for its x Julius conjugated in Greek?
Get a text from Perseus, TLG, Logeion, etc.
Or search Mason's PACE

https://penelope.uchicago.edu/josephus/ant-1.html is the first book of Antiquities; search it for Julius, Mark the entry, and continue till you have all 4 cases. Then go to PACE http://pace.hypervisions.it/york/york/s ... yout=split and see what that has

Work smart, not hard

Cool thanks man.

I agree. Work smart, not hard.

[lclapshaw]

Just out of curiosity, why wouldn't Iulius be abbreviated IC, IU, IN, IOmega?

[mlinssen]

Just out of curiosity, why wouldn't Iulius be abbreviated IC, IU, IN, IOmega?

I have no idea, I've only read about a Julius in Latin, it's not a typical Greek name - so I'm unclear about the conjugation

Your getting the order wrong btw, it's always

Nominative
Genitive
Dative
Accusative

So

IS
IU
IW
IN

[lclapshaw]

Just out of curiosity, why wouldn't Iulius be abbreviated IC, IU, IN, IOmega?

I have no idea, I've only read about a Julius in Latin, it's not a typical Greek name - so I'm unclear about the conjugation

Your getting the order wrong btw, it's always

Nominative
Genitive
Dative
Accusative

So

IS
IU
IW
IN

Got ya. I'll do the work and put this to bed. And I'll take more care in my order listing.

I appreciate you correcting me.

Lane

[mlinssen]

Just out of curiosity, why wouldn't Iulius be abbreviated IC, IU, IN, IOmega?

I have no idea, I've only read about a Julius in Latin, it's not a typical Greek name - so I'm unclear about the conjugation

Your getting the order wrong btw, it's always

Nominative
Genitive
Dative
Accusative

So

IS
IU
IW
IN

Got ya. I'll do the work and put this to bed. And I'll take more care in my order listing.

I appreciate you correcting me.

Lane

You're welcome bud. After 30 years of marriage I welcome anyone who listens to me!