The Book of Revelation is hardly a Christian text

[MrMacSon]

Chapters 2 to 18 of the NT book of Revelation (aka the Apocalypse of John) are vague theology. Those chapters hardly if ever mention or even allude to Jesus or Christ | eta: the last verse of chapter 12, 12:17, has

Then the dragon was enraged at the woman and went off to wage war against the rest of her offspring—those who keep God’s commands and hold fast their testimony about Jesus

Chapter 1 seems to be a Christian prologue inserted on an otherwise non-Christian text.

Chapters 2 & 3 have messages to "the angel/messenger of the church ἐκκλησίας | ekklēsias" in X, Y, Z, etc.

• ἐκκλησίας | ekklēsias being more likely assemblies/communities than churches (though we know archaeologically that some eventual 'churches' in those places were previously temples)

It's almost like these seven to "the angel-messenger of the ἐκκλησίας in X, Y, Z, etc.", statements are later insertions, as what follows them is vague hardly Christian theology, if at all:

Revelation 2

1 “To the angel of the ἐκκλησίας in Ephesus write:

These are the words of him who holds the seven stars in his right hand and walks among the seven golden lampstands. 2 I know your deeds, your hard work and your perseverance. I know that you cannot tolerate wicked people, that you have tested those who claim to be apostles but are not, and have found them false. 3 You have persevered and have endured hardships for my name, and have not grown weary ...


8 "To the angel of the 'church' in Smyrna write:

These are the words of him who is the First and the Last, who died and came to life again. 9 I know your afflictions and your poverty—yet you are rich! I know about the slander of those who say they are Jews and are not, but are a synagogue of Satan ...


12 “To the angel of the 'church' in Pergamum write:

These are the words of him who has the sharp, double-edged sword. 13 I know where you live—where Satan has his throne. Yet you remain true to my name. You did not renounce your faith in me, not even in the days of Antipas, my faithful witness, who was put to death in your city—where Satan lives.

14 Nevertheless, I have a few things against you: There are some among you who hold to the teaching of Balaam, who taught Balak to entice the Israelites to sin so that they ate food sacrificed to idols and committed sexual immorality. 15 Likewise, you also have those who hold to the teaching of the Nicolaitans. 16 Repent therefore! Otherwise, I will soon come to you and will fight against them with the sword of my mouth.

17 Whoever has ears, let them hear what the Spirit says to the churches. To the one who is victorious, I will give some of the hidden manna. I will also give that person a white stone with a new name written on it, known only to the one who receives it.

18 “To the angel of the 'church' in Thyatira write:

These are the words of the Son of God, whose eyes are like blazing fire and whose feet are like burnished bronze. 19 I know your deeds, your love and faith, your service and perseverance, and that you are now doing more than you did at first.

20 Nevertheless, I have this against you: You tolerate that woman Jezebel, who calls herself a prophet. By her teaching she misleads my servants into sexual immorality and the eating of food sacrificed to idols ...

Revelation 3

1 “To the angel of the ἐκκλησίας in Sardis write:

These are the words of him who holds the seven[fold] spirits of God and the seven stars. I know your deeds; you have a reputation of being alive, but you are dead. 2 Wake up! Strengthen what remains and is about to die, for I have found your deeds unfinished in the sight of my God ...


7 "To the angel of the 'church' in Philadelphia write:

These are the words of him who is holy and true, who holds the key of David. What he opens no one can shut, and what he shuts no one can open. 8 I know your deeds. See, I have placed before you an open door that no one can shut. I know that you have little strength, yet you have kept my word and have not denied my name. 9 I will make those who are of the synagogue of Satan, who claim to be Jews though they are not, but are liars—I will make them come and fall down at your feet and acknowledge that I have loved you. 10 Since you have kept my command to endure patiently, I will also keep you from the hour of trial that is going to come on the whole world to test the inhabitants of the earth.

11 I am coming soon. Hold on to what you have, so that no one will take your crown. 12 The one who is victorious I will make a pillar in the temple of my God ...


14 “To the angel of the 'church' in Laodicea write:

These are the words of the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the ruler of God’s creation. 15 I know your deeds, that you are neither cold nor hot. I wish you were either one or the other! 16 So, because you are lukewarm—neither hot nor cold—I am about to spit you out of my mouth ...

[MrMacSon]

The Book of Revelation reads like a Jewish polemic text

eg. Revelation 7

1 After this I saw four angels standing at the four corners of the earth, holding back the four winds of the earth to prevent any wind from blowing on the land or on the sea or on any tree. 2 Then I saw another angel coming up from the east, having the seal of the living God. He called out in a loud voice to the four angels who had been given power to harm the land and the sea: 3 “Do not harm the land or the sea or the trees until we put a seal on the foreheads of the servants of our God.” 4 Then I heard the number of those who were sealed: 144,000 from all the tribes of Israel.

5 From the tribe of Judah 12,000 were sealed,

..from the tribe of Reuben 12,000,

..from the tribe of Gad 12,000,

6 from the tribe of Asher 12,000,

..from the tribe of Naphtali 12,000,

..from the tribe of Manasseh 12,000,

7 from the tribe of Simeon 12,000,

..from the tribe of Levi 12,000,

..from the tribe of Issachar 12,000,

8 from the tribe of Zebulun 12,000,

..from the tribe of Joseph 12,000,

..from the tribe of Benjamin 12,000.

9 After this I looked, and there before me was a great multitude that no one could count, from every nation, tribe, people and language, standing before the throne and before the Lamb. They were wearing white robes and were holding palm branches in their hands. 10 And they cried out in a loud voice:

..“Salvation belongs to our God,
...who sits on the throne,
...and to the Lamb.”

11 All the angels were standing around the throne and around the elders and the four living creatures. They fell down on their faces before the throne and worshiped God ...

eg. Rev 15:3—8

5 After this I looked, and I saw in heaven the temple—that is, the tabernacle of the covenant law—and it was opened. 6 Out of the temple came the seven angels with the seven plagues. They were dressed in clean, shining linen and wore golden sashes around their chests. 7 Then one of the four living creatures gave to the seven angels seven golden bowls filled with the wrath of God, who lives for ever and ever. 8 And the temple was filled with smoke from the glory of God and from his power, and no one could enter the temple until the seven plagues of the seven angels were completed.

[MrMacSon]

The first mention of or explicit reference to Jesus beyond verses Rev 1:1, 2, 5, and 9 is Rev 19:10

And, even then, it's " to the testimony of Jesus ... the Spirit of prophecy who bears testimony to Jesus "

6 Then I heard what sounded like a great multitude, like the roar of rushing waters and like loud peals of thunder, shouting:

.....“Hallelujah!
....... For our Lord God Almighty reigns.
7 .. Let us rejoice and be glad
....... and give him glory!
.....For the wedding of the Lamb has come,
....... and his bride has made herself ready.
8 .. Fine linen, bright and clean,
....... was given her to wear.”

(Fine linen stands for the righteous acts of God’s holy people.)

9 Then the angel said to me, “Write this: Blessed are those who are invited to the wedding supper of the Lamb!” And he added, “These are the true words of God.”

10 At this I fell at his feet to worship him. But he said to me, “Don’t do that! I am a fellow servant with you and with your brothers and sisters who hold to the testimony of Jesus. Worship God! For it is the Spirit of prophecy who bears testimony to Jesus.”

[ABuddhist]

The first mention of or explicit reference to Jesus beyond verses Rev 1:1, 2, 5, and 9 is Rev 19:10

And, even then, it's " to the testimony of Jesus ... the Spirit of prophecy who bears testimony to Jesus "

10 At this I fell at his feet to worship him. But he said to me, “Don’t do that! I am a fellow servant with you and with your brothers and sisters who hold to the testimony of Jesus. Worship God! For it is the Spirit of prophecy who bears testimony to Jesus.”

Might this have been designed to undermine angel-worship in Christianity (or Judaism)?

[MrMacSon]

The start of Revelation 20

1 And I saw an angel coming down out of heaven, having the key to the Abyss and holding in his hand a great chain. 2 He seized the dragon, that ancient serpent, who is the devil, or Satan, and bound him for a thousand years. 3 He threw him into the Abyss, and locked and sealed it over him, to keep him from deceiving the nations anymore until the thousand years were ended. After that, he must be set free for a short time.

4 I saw thrones on which were seated those who had been given authority to judge. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony about Jesus and because of the word of God. They had not worshiped the beast* or its image and had not received its mark on their foreheads or their hands. They came to life and reigned with Christ a thousand years. 5 (The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were ended.) This is the first resurrection. 6 Blessed and holy are those who share in the first resurrection. The second death has no power over them, but they will be priests of God and of Christ and will reign with him for a thousand years.

7 When the thousand years are over, Satan will be released from his prison 8 and will go out to deceive the nations in the four corners of the earth—Gog and Magog—and to gather them for battle.

* see chapter 13


The start of Revelation 21

1 Then I saw “a new heaven and a new earth” [Isaiah 65:17], for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away, and there was no longer any sea. 2 I saw the Holy City, the new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride beautifully dressed for her husband. 3 And I heard a loud voice from the throne saying, “Look! God’s dwelling place is now among the people, and he will dwell with them. They will be his people, and God himself will be with them and be their God. 4 ‘He will wipe every tear from their eyes. There will be no more death [Isaiah 25:8]’ or mourning or crying or pain, for the old order of things has passed away.”

5 He who was seated on the throne said, “I am making everything new!” Then he said, “Write this down, for these words are trustworthy and true.”

6 He said to me: “It is done. I am the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End. To the thirsty I will give water without cost from the spring of the water of life. 7 Those who are victorious will inherit all this, and I will be their God and they will be my children ...

The end of Revelation 21 and the end of the book

22 I did not see a temple in the city,1 because the Lord God Almighty and the Lamb are its temple. 23 The city does not need the sun or the moon to shine on it, for the glory of God gives it light, and the Lamb is its lamp. 24 The nations will walk by its light, and the kings of the earth will bring their splendor into it. 25 On no day will its gates ever be shut, for there will be no night there. 26 The glory and honor of the nations will be brought into it. 27 Nothing impure will ever enter it, nor will anyone who does what is shameful or deceitful, but only those whose names are written in the Lamb’s book of life.

1 21:10 "And he carried me away in the Spirit to a mountain great and high, and showed me the Holy City, Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God."

Almost certainly post 70 AD, of course. Maybe post bar Kochba (?)

26 "The glory and honor of the nations will be brought into it"
27 "Nothing impure will ever enter it, nor will anyone who does what is shameful or deceitful ..."

[MrMacSon]

The first mention of or explicit reference to Jesus beyond verses Rev 1:1, 2, 5, and 9 is Rev 19:10

And, even then, it's " to the testimony of Jesus ... the Spirit of prophecy who bears testimony to Jesus "

10 At this I fell at his feet to worship him. But he said to me, “Don’t do that! I am a fellow servant with you and with your brothers and sisters who hold to the testimony of Jesus. Worship God! For it is the Spirit of prophecy who bears testimony to Jesus.”

Might this have been designed to undermine angel-worship in Christianity (or Judaism)?

Good question. It's raises the prospect of similarity to some of the Pauline propositional/prophetic theology whereby people who have faith in Christ Jesus might be [made] equally divine to angels.

[Charles Wilson]

Revelation 8: 1 (RSV):

[1] When the Lamb opened the seventh seal, there was silence in heaven for about half an hour.

If you allow the Symbolic Assignment of the Rule of Queen Salome with half hour of silence in heaven, you get alignment and sequence with not only what follows but also what came before in chapter 7:

The Tribulation, far from being a future Christian marker, has already happened. It marks the Survival of those who were with Jannaeus in the mountains for six years after his defeat at the hands of Demetrius Eucerus, who committed the Abomination of Desolation, standing where HE ought not.

The Survivors, who nearly starved, were given the Citadels by Salome.

This part of Revelation, at least, is not "Christian" at all. Once again, the NT is a CONSTRUCTION of parts. The Jannaeus Sections move from Luke 2 (Hannah the Prophetess), for example, to Revelation. It is not a criticism to say that I, for ex., jump around a lot. These sections can be identified in the Construction.The deeper implication is that these Sections were taken from earlier Judaic and Semitic Sources.

CW

[MrMacSon]

Guiseppe has pointed out Rev 11:2-12 viewtopic.php?p=136081#p136081

3 And I will appoint my two witnesses, and they will prophesy for 1,260 days, clothed in sackcloth.”

4 They are “the two olive trees” and the two lampstands, and “they stand before the Lord of the earth” [see Zech 4:3,11,14]. 5 If anyone tries to harm them, fire comes from their mouths and devours their enemies. This is how anyone who wants to harm them must die. 6 They have power to shut up the heavens so that it will not rain during the time they are prophesying; and they have power to turn the waters into blood and to strike the earth with every kind of plague as often as they want.

7 Now when they have finished their testimony, the beast that comes up from the Abyss will attack them, and overpower and kill them.

8 Their bodies will lie in the public square of the great city—which is figuratively called Sodom and Egypt—where also their Lord was crucified. 9 For three and a half days some from every people, tribe, language and nation will gaze on their bodies and refuse them burial. 10 The inhabitants of the earth will gloat over them and will celebrate by sending each other gifts, because these two prophets had tormented those who live on the earth.

11 But after the three and a half days the breath of life from God entered them [see Ezek. 37:5,14],1 and they stood on their feet, and terror struck those who saw them. 12 Then they heard a loud voice from heaven saying to them, “Come up here.” And they went up to heaven in a cloud, while their enemies looked on.

13 At that very hour there was a severe earthquake and a tenth of the city collapsed. Seven thousand people were killed in the earthquake, and the survivors were terrified and gave glory to the God of heaven.

14 The second woe has passed; the third woe is coming soon.

15 The seventh angel sounded his trumpet, and there were loud voices in heaven, which said:

..“The kingdom of the world
.... has become the kingdom of our Lord and of his Messiah,
.... and he will reign for ever and ever.”

1 Ezekiel 37:4—6

4 Then he [the LORD] said to me, “Prophesy to these bones and say to them, ‘Dry bones, hear the word of the Lord! 5 This is what the Sovereign Lord says to these bones: I will make breath* enter you, and you will come to life. 6 I will attach tendons to you and make flesh come upon you and cover you with skin; I will put breath in you, and you will come to life. Then you will know that I am the Lord’.”

* as for the Greek (pneuma), the Hebrew word for breath is the same word for wind and for spirit


1 Ezekiel 37:11—14

11 ...He said to me:
....“Son of man, these bones are the people of Israel. They say, ‘Our bones are dried up and our hope is gone; we are cut off.’

12 “Therefore prophesy and say to them:
‘This is what the Sovereign Lord says: My people, I am going to open your graves and bring you up from them; I will bring you back to the land of Israel. 13 Then you, my people, will know that I am the Lord, when I open your graves and bring you up from them. 14 I will put my Spirit in you and you will live, and I will settle you in your own land. Then you will know that I the Lord have spoken, and I have done it, declares the Lord’.”

[MrMacSon]

Revelation 1:13 has someone like a/the son of man who commands John:

10 On the Lord’s Day I [John] was in the Spirit, and I heard behind me a loud voice like a trumpet, 11 which said: “Write on a scroll what you see and send it to the seven churches: to Ephesus, Smyrna, Pergamum, Thyatira, Sardis, Philadelphia and Laodicea.”

12 I turned around to see the voice that was speaking to me. And when I turned I saw seven golden lampstands, 13 and among the lampstands was someone like a son of man dressed in a robe reaching down to his feet and with a golden sash around his chest. 14 The hair on his head was white like wool [Daniel 7:9], as white as snow, and his eyes were like blazing fire. 15 His feet were like bronze glowing in a furnace, and his voice was like the sound of rushing waters. 16 In his right hand he held seven stars, and coming out of his mouth was a sharp, double-edged sword. His face was like the sun shining in all its brilliance ...

19 “Write, therefore, what you have seen, what is now and what will take place later. 20 The mystery of the seven stars that you saw in my right hand and of the seven golden lampstands is this: The seven stars are the angels of the seven ekklēsiōn | ἐκκλησιῶν, and the seven lampstands are the seven ἐκκλησίαι | ekklēsiai.

[schillingklaus]

Revelation is a completely Catholic text, as it identifies the Father with YHWH, in opposition to Satan identified with the serpent . The Catholic church identifies itself as the true and restored Israel, recepient of the promise to rule the world in turn for its allegiance with YHWH.