Bruno Bauer, Christ and the Caesars [Fictional Jesus]

[neilgodfrey]

However AFAIK the rise of Christianity from the lower levels of society is also being inferred via the archaeological remains, which are largely very silent. The implication here is that if Christianity is not represented in the archaeology, then it may not have been embraced by the well-to-do classes (responsible, with exceptions of course, for the archaeological remains).

The "Christians for Christians" inscriptions in Asia Minor?

Apart from those what interests me is the earliest Christian sarcophagi that are evidently from the upper class and point to a Christianity that seems to have scant place for a crucifixion.

[neilgodfrey]

Does Troels Engberg-Pedersen venture beyond Pauline thought? According to the reading of Lightfoot's material Stoicism appears in the "Sermon on the Mount" and throughout the gospels as well.

He focuses on the Stoic concepts of conversion and the converted life and relationship with the teacher/apostle, from what I recall. But the converted life implies a way of life, a particular ethic that centres around the community, of course.

[andrewcriddle]

Note that in "Plea for the Christians" there is no reference to Jesus, and there is this -

CHAP. III. CHARGES BROUGHT AGAINST THE CHRISTIANS.

Three things are alleged against us: atheism, Thyestean feasts, OEdipodean intercourse.

Similar charges brought against another pre-Christian religion.

That's interesting. Which religion was that? Do you have a source detailing those charges?

I suspect that the reference is to the lurid allegations brought against followers of Bacchus Livy 39

Andrew Criddle

[GakuseiDon]

Note that in "Plea for the Christians" there is no reference to Jesus, and there is this -

CHAP. III. CHARGES BROUGHT AGAINST THE CHRISTIANS.
Three things are alleged against us: atheism, Thyestean feasts, OEdipodean intercourse.

Similar charges brought against another pre-Christian religion.

That's interesting. Which religion was that? Do you have a source detailing those charges?

I suspect that the reference is to the lurid allegations brought against followers of Bacchus Livy 39

Thanks Andrew. I can see them being charged with eating human flesh and sleeping with near relatives, but not atheism (which in those times of course meant rejecting the Roman gods). I was thinking that MrMacSon meant the Druids, though I'm not sure they were charged with Oedipodean intercourse. So I'm interested in whom MrMacSon had in mind.

[MrMacSon]

History details the evil repute the The cult of Serapis and Isis had, and it exposed the chrestianos repeatedly to persecution: not merely to political considerations (Rome and Alexandria had been enemies for years), but also to moral and police suspicions and attacks. The lax morality associated with the worship of the Egyptian gods, especially the goddess Isis who married her brother Osiris, and from his dead body conceived a son (Horus), giving foundation to Roman revolution to the incestuous affair that was common everywhere. More exactly it was the fanaticism of the chrestianos worshippers that repelled the Romans, and excited the suspicion that their cultus might be directed against the State. As Cumont noted:

• "Their secret associations, which were chiefly recruited from the poorer people, might easily, under the cover of religion, become clubs of agitators and the resort of spies. These grounds for suspicion and hatred contributed more, no doubt, to the rise of the persecution than purely theological considerations. We see how it subsides and flames out again according to the changes in the condition of general politics”
  
  (Burckhardt – Brandenberg, August and Cumont, Franz Valery Marie (1969) Die orientalischen Religionen im römischen Heidentum; nach der vierten franzosischen Aufl. Unter Zugrundelegung der ubersetzung Gerichs. Darmstadt : Wissenschaftliche Buchgesellschaft, 1969; Cumont, Franz and Sehrich, Georg (1910) Die orientalischen Religionen im römischen Heidentum, Leipzig and Berlin, NP. by Gehrich (1910), p. 98.)

https://arthuride.wordpress.com/tag/serapis-god/

Augustus found the cult "pornographic," though the cult was known to proscribe periods of sexual abstinence to its adherents. The real reason for Augustus' wrath was that the cult was linked to Egypt and thus the power base of his rival, Antony. Cleopatra had even gone so far to declare herself Isis reincarnated. Nonetheless, Augustus' scorn did little to stem popular opinion. Officials and servants of the imperial household were members of the cult. It seems even his own infamous daughter was a member; whether her belief was genuine or merely another aspect of her defiance against her father cannot be determined.

Tiberius, upon hearing of a sexual scandal involving the cult, had the offenders crucified and images of Isis cast into the Tiber. But, much like Christianity, periodic and sporadic persecutions did nothing to stem the tide. What was death when one's deity promised salvation and resurrection?


The Un-Roman Roman cult
The Cult of Isis was, thanks to Ptolemy, Hellenized to a degree that the Roman mind could understand it, and yet still foreign enough to be exotic and alien.


Not much is known about the details of the inner workings of the mysteries, as they were by definition secret. Prospective initiates were called to the goddess by dreams and visions. Intense preparations of purification and meditation (and abstinence) were followed by exotic rites designed to recreate the myth of Isis and the resurrection of Osiris. By enduring these rituals, the adherent was reconciled to the magic of Isis and effectively granted a favorable afterlife. He or she was in a sense spiritually reborn in a manner common to Greco-Oriental savior religions.

But there were more public festivals too that didn't require initiation. The first was conducted on March 5th. In honor of Isis sailing the seas to find pieces of her lost husband, a colorful procession of costumed people, including especially sailors, marched to port and ritually blessed a boat. The second festival was held October 28th to November 3rd. This was an ancient passion play Again, costumed enactors took to the streets, this time to reenact the death and resurrection of Serapis.

The subject of the ethics of the cult is a complicated one. We know that Egyptian culture as a whole was free with sexuality compared to Roman culture. Isis was in fact rather popular with courtesans and other such professions, and there are speculations that Isiac cults may have promoted a kind of "positive sexuality" among a more conservative Roman population. Augustus and Tiberius took this as proof of a "pornographic" cult.

http://www.unrv.com/culture/isis.php

[Leucius Charinus]

And I find that these quotes clearly allude to a Stoic conception of a god which is extremely similar to a Christian concept of god.

I would certainly agree!

Do you think that, to some extent, and from the Stoic literature, the NT authors "borrowed" the theology of the Stoics for the literary expression of their Christian theology? Otherwise how would one account for the extreme similarity of literary expressions behind both theologies?

Read the Second Century apologists, who are all too eager to show that Christianity was on par with Greek philosophy. Not just Stoicism, but all the other -isms that were popular in the day.

If the NT authors simply cobbled together a mix of ideas, many of them from the Stoics, the Christian books would obviously be on par with Roman and Greek philosophy. This cobbling together of ideas (including those from the Greek LXX) strongly suggests that the NT books are literary fabrications produced in a literary school, and most likely in the 2nd century (when the 2nd century apologists appear).

And these had been percolating through Judaism for centuries also.

Following Bauer I have argued that Jewish Christianity is a myth .... viewtopic.php?f=3&t=1246

The argument is that the literary school in which the books of the NT were authored was a Greek literary school under influence of Romans.

As such it did not need anything Judaic - --- it only required the Greek LXX. This is the only Judaic influence required. The LXX is at least one step removed from Judaism. There is also serious cause for concern that this school of NT authors used their own special LXX translation. If so, this is a further step removed from Judaism.

How many people are uncomfortable with a 2nd century date for the books of the NT?





LC

[Charles Wilson]

How many people are uncomfortable with a 2nd century date for the books of the NT?

Not me, LC.

With Domitian dba "The Holy Spirit", being the disembodied lord-god who underwent Damnatio, that places the absolute earliest organized NT at Post-96. The death of Verginius Rufus occurs in 97 with Pliny the Younger and Tacitus at the funeral. Rufus refused Imperial Honors on several occasions, running out the back door in one instance when the soldiers were about to "convince" him after the death of Otho (The Empty Tomb, indeed!). So the organization begins and its no great shakes to see the First Draft from 101 to around 110 for Mark and John.

People need to adjust their comfort zones a bit more. 2nd century is not only plausible, this early date offers great explanatory power.

CW

[Leucius Charinus]

However AFAIK the rise of Christianity from the lower levels of society is also being inferred via the archaeological remains, which are largely very silent. The implication here is that if Christianity is not represented in the archaeology, then it may not have been embraced by the well-to-do classes (responsible, with exceptions of course, for the archaeological remains).

The "Christians for Christians" inscriptions in Asia Minor?

The exceptions that I had in mind here are the funerary inscriptions and epitaphs of the slave class.

Apart from those what interests me is the earliest Christian sarcophagi that are evidently from the upper class and point to a Christianity that seems to have scant place for a crucifixion.

I cant find a crucifix with Jesus on it until the 6th or 7th century. Apparently the iconography of a "Lamb on the Cross" preceded "Jesus on the Cross".

These earliest Christian sarcophagi indeed make a fascinating study.
SEE: http://historum.com/ancient-history/697 ... uries.html

One really interesting one IMO is this .....

LHS



RHS




Of particular interest, at the top RHS of the first image, continuing to the top LHS of the second image is a scene described as "the arrest of Peter". This is listed as from the Apocryphal Acts of Processus and Martinianus - a non canonical source. I think this may be the same as "The Acts of Linus" which Roger has recently had translated to English and placed in the public domain. The authorship date attributed to this text is rather late.

So this evidence seems to indicate that the earliest Christian sarcophagi (of the upper classes) were adorned with scenes from both the canonical and non canonical books which in itself is a surprising fact. It seems to suggest there may have been an epoch in which both the canonical and non canonical books enjoyed their public representations.




LC