The Tide Turns

Discussion about the New Testament, apocrypha, gnostics, church fathers, Christian origins, historical Jesus or otherwise, etc.
bcedaifu
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Re: The Tide Turns

Post by bcedaifu »

ficino wrote:I'm also not sure how much you want to press "know [[my bold]] nothing, reliably." I assume you are familiar with texts from antiquity, the transmission of which occurred via a single manuscript - e.g. Catullus' poems. I don't think anyone who works on Latin poetry would say that we know nothing reliably about Catullus' poems, though there is much about their production and subsequent transmission that we don't know. Obviously, a lot of the time in ancient studies, "know" boils down to "can arrive at a well-supported conclusion." Surely your requirements of proof in ancient studies aren't stricter than the nature of the case allows. But perhaps I'm getting hung up on "know."

Anyway, I agree that the authenticity of the TT, whole or in part, is a problem. It seems to me that the difficulties arise more from Chrestianos/Christianos, as you say, and from the content of the passage than from the fact that we have but one primary MS.
Thanks for this, and thanks also to Jay, for an interesting thread. I learned something. That's always a good sign.

Yes, Jay, looking forward to your summary of his book...

Ficino, well written. Um, yes, I may be overly sensitive to the question of accepting without reservation, manuscript evidence from ancient authors, when portions of that data have been deliberately, transparently distorted, for political purposes. I always worry, about those things I cannot observe, more subtle changes, than the vulgar change of chrestianos to christianos in Tacitus Annals.

In the case of Tacitus, who served as Rome's primary functionary in Turkey, as we call it today, a region with a Greek speaking population, why wouldn't Tacitus have written in Greek, rather than Latin? How do we know that the entire manuscript was not changed from an original, written in Greek, now translated into Latin, inside the monastery walls?

Maybe at the end of the first century, CE, Greek was no longer the lingua franca among the intellectuals of the former Greek empire? Maybe it had been replaced by Latin, and therefore, Tacitus wrote in Latin. I doubt this explanation, but have no proof to the contrary.

Δίων Κάσσιος Κοκκηϊανός , who lived one century AFTER Tacitus, was a Roman consul, roughly equivalent to Tacitus, in rank, maybe not identical, and he wrote in Greek, not Latin. So, even in late second, early third century, intellectuals communicated within the Roman Empire, in GREEK, not Latin. I am deeply suspicious when I encounter an educated man like Tacitus, living in the heart of the ancient Greek empire, writing in Latin. It makes no sense to me. What does make sense, to me, is the dictum from the pope, to FIX the manuscript evidence. I imagine every 11th century monk, following the Pope's orders precisely. The manuscripts we have today, in Latin, were discovered in the 14th century at Monte Cassino monastery by Zanobi da Strada. It has been suggested that they were copied in the 11th century, during the time of the Crusades, but who knows. What is most peculiar, is that there are not a thousand copies of Tacitus' work, available. Why only one copy? That makes sense, only if one seeks to control the message, destroying all copies which have not been "repaired".
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Peter Kirby
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Re: The Tide Turns

Post by Peter Kirby »

MrMacSon wrote:You both merely appeal to authority, or kind-of poison-the-well by pointing out a lack of [academic] "authority".

The arguments are what is important: best engage with them.
You are right, of course.

It is foolish to reject an argument or an opinion because of the person making them.

On the other hand, this isn't the first rodeo for anyone here, especially for the Jesus-did-not-exist arguments and opinion.

The people that are showing up now to argue for it run the risk of "me-too, also ran" irrelevance. While a lack of credentials doesn't invalidate the opinion or the argument, it may -- along with a fee required to peruse that argument or opinon (say in a book...) - operate as a serious disincentive even to get to the point of engaging with the latest rehash.

Polishing those credentials or getting the argument out there for easy access ... that's just quid pro quo, if someone actually wants to be read.
"... almost every critical biblical position was earlier advanced by skeptics." - Raymond Brown
The Crow
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Re: The Tide Turns

Post by The Crow »

PhilosopherJay wrote:Hi all,

An historian named Michael Paulkovich has just written a new book "No Meek Messiah". Here's a review: http://www.examiner.com/article/jesus-d ... historians. It claims that Jesus is (wait for it, drum roll...) a myth.

Now the fun begins.

I am wondering how long the Christian religion can last when rejected by historians as not based on historical facts. My guess is 50 years.

Warmly,

Jay Raskin
Hell Jay it's lasted this long on a myth it could go another what 2500 years before anyone is the wiser.
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Leucius Charinus
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Re: The Tide Turns

Post by Leucius Charinus »

The Crow wrote:
PhilosopherJay wrote:I am wondering how long the Christian religion can last when rejected by historians as not based on historical facts. My guess is 50 years.
Hell Jay it's lasted this long on a myth it could go another what 2500 years before anyone is the wiser.
Wasn't it Ralph Waldo Emerson (1803-1882) who said ......
  • "We must get rid of those Christs, we must get rid of those Christianities!"


    :)




LC
A "cobbler of fables" [Augustine]; "Leucius is the disciple of the devil" [Decretum Gelasianum]; and his books "should be utterly swept away and burned" [Pope Leo I]; they are the "source and mother of all heresy" [Photius]
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Eric
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Re: The Tide Turns

Post by Eric »

Wasn't it Ralph Waldo Emerson (1803-1882) who said ......
  • "We must get rid of those Christs, we must get rid of those Christianities!"
    :)

LC
Wasn't it Hitler who wanted to get rid of the Jewish people?
To become fully human is divine.
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Leucius Charinus
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Re: The Tide Turns

Post by Leucius Charinus »

Eric wrote:
Wasn't it Ralph Waldo Emerson (1803-1882) who said ......
  • "We must get rid of those Christs, we must get rid of those Christianities!"
    :)

LC
Wasn't it Hitler who wanted to get rid of the Jewish people?
War is a racket. Didn't the allies stop him?

The pagans didn't have any allies.




LC.
A "cobbler of fables" [Augustine]; "Leucius is the disciple of the devil" [Decretum Gelasianum]; and his books "should be utterly swept away and burned" [Pope Leo I]; they are the "source and mother of all heresy" [Photius]
juttajxwa
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Re: The Tide Turns

Post by juttajxwa »

He proved that the Acts of the Apostles was actually written in A.D 638!!
PhilosopherJay
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Re: The Tide Turns

Post by PhilosopherJay »

Hi Eric,

I think the original quote from Emerson was "I think we must get rid of slavery or we must get rid of freedom."
John E. Remsburg in his book "The Christ," (1909) appears to misquote Emerson as saying "We must rid of that Christ"
Leucius Charinus cleverly combined the title of my book "the Evolution of Christs and Christianities" to come up with the line
"We must get rid of those Christs, we must get rid of those Christianities!"

This word play has nothing to do with Hitler and the German Nazi Party's insane policy of mass murder of some six million European Jews between 1938 and 1944. (Note: the Nazis also were responsible for some 40 million other people dying during this period, including 20 million Soviets and 9 million Germans).
I would be vehemently opposed to killing, or harming in any way, even one person just for being a Christian. I would consider it the equivalent of killing or harming someone for liking Batman.



Warmly,

Jay Raskin

Eric wrote:
Wasn't it Ralph Waldo Emerson (1803-1882) who said ......
  • "We must get rid of those Christs, we must get rid of those Christianities!"
    :)

LC
Wasn't it Hitler who wanted to get rid of the Jewish people?
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Leucius Charinus
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Re: The Tide Turns

Post by Leucius Charinus »

Hi Philosopher Jay,

I am glad you got the connection.

http://www.theinfidels.org/zunb-ralphwaldoemerson.htm

Hitler and Emerson are worlds apart.

As I understand things, from out here on the edge, Emerson's religious beliefs may have been expressed in the following ....
  • "To get up each morning with the resolve to be happy…
    is to set our own conditions to the events of each day.

    To do this is to condition circumstances
    instead of being conditioned by them
    .

    ~ Ralph Waldo Emerson

Be well,


LC.
A "cobbler of fables" [Augustine]; "Leucius is the disciple of the devil" [Decretum Gelasianum]; and his books "should be utterly swept away and burned" [Pope Leo I]; they are the "source and mother of all heresy" [Photius]
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Leucius Charinus
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Re: The Tide Turns

Post by Leucius Charinus »

juttajxwa wrote:He proved that the Acts of the Apostles was actually written in A.D 638!!
Who proved this? Emerson, Lake or Palmer?

Nice first post juttajxwa (I wonder who this is?)



LC
A "cobbler of fables" [Augustine]; "Leucius is the disciple of the devil" [Decretum Gelasianum]; and his books "should be utterly swept away and burned" [Pope Leo I]; they are the "source and mother of all heresy" [Photius]
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