Was Peregrinus really a Christian ?

Discussion about the New Testament, apocrypha, gnostics, church fathers, Christian origins, historical Jesus or otherwise, etc.

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arnoldo
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Re: Was Peregrinus really a replicant ?

Post by arnoldo » Tue Oct 15, 2013 3:11 pm

Philip K Dick documented in Do Androids Dream of Electric Sheep of a replicant who had many parallels to Peregrinus's life. For example, this replicant wandered from place to place all throughout it's life. Eventually this wandering replicant is able to make it to earth where he meets his father- and then kills him. To disguise itself, this replicant wears shabby clothes and lives an ascetic lifestyle. Finally, when this replicant dies a bird flies away from him. Co-incidence? It is documented that Philip K Dick had experiences where events which occurred in the Roman Empire influenced his writings. Taking Philip K Dick's writings into account, it's likely that Peregrinus is in fact a replicant and not Polycarp. ;)

perseusomega9
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Re: Was Peregrinus really a Christian ?

Post by perseusomega9 » Thu Feb 06, 2014 12:55 pm

Stephen,

Do you think your theory of Peregrinus = Polycarp is strengthened by Trobisch's idea that Polycarp was editor of the canon, especially in light of Lucian's remarks that Peregrinus authored many of the Christians books?
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stephan happy huller
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Re: Was Peregrinus really a Christian ?

Post by stephan happy huller » Thu Feb 06, 2014 1:43 pm

Well I mean I don't know if that really advances the cause of identifying Peregrinus with Polycarp because we don't have a source anywhere that says that Polycarp authored material in the name of other people. So while yes I think it is an important statement once you accept the idea that Polycarp was Peregrinus, I don't think it proves the association one way or the other. The strongest arguments are IMO:

1. that Peregrinus and Polycarp both effectively burned themselves alive by instigating the authorities
2. the bird flying out of the fire in both fiery deaths (present in the original Martyrdom of Polycarp but removed in surviving texts)
3. that the date of Polycarp's death was around the same time as Peregrinus
4. the reference to 'underworld couriers' in Peregrinus and the situation of assistants in the letters of Ignatius with Polycarp's name appearing as a secretary of at least some of the letters of the Ignatian corpus and the role of Polycarp in the Martyrdom of Ignatius

The example of (4) is the most problematic. Some people have argued for an association with Ignatius for the very same reason (Lightfoot makes the connection between the Passing of Peregrinus and the Ignatian corpus). But IMO Ignatius is a figure developed out of the example of Polycarp because of the obvious parallels between Lucius's book.

In other words, the Ignatian corpus especially in its Syriac form is one step removed from the collection of letters in its original form - i.e. letters written by the peregrinus to his followers. The name 'fiery one' (Ignatius or Nurono) only shows how vague a figure the shadowy peregrinus was - i.e. people likely only knew him as 'the fire martyr.' I think Irenaeus's defined his master as Polycarp owing to his 'fruitfulness.' But notice also that when engaged with his fellow pupil Florinus he only refers to the man as 'the presbyter.' The conclusion I draw from this is that (a) Polycarp originally had no name (b) the names 'Polycarp' and 'Ignatius' were developed posthumously.
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neilgodfrey
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Re: Was Peregrinus really a Christian ?

Post by neilgodfrey » Thu Feb 06, 2014 3:09 pm

Roger Parvus has revived the theory first proposed by Daniel Völter that Peregrinus was the author of the letters attributed to Ignatius. Parvus incorporates the ideas of Josephe Turmel and Alfred Loisy that those Ignatian letters were originally composed by a "moderate Marcionite".

In particular he argues:

--that the seven Ignatian letters that comprise the middle recension were originally letters written by Peregrinus c. 145 CE,

--that he was an Apellean Christian i.e. a follower of the ex-Marcionite Apelles, and

--that later, towards the end of the second century, the letters were modified by a proto-Catholic Christian.

The series of posts making up his argument are listed at http://vridar.org/other-authors/roger-p ... -ignatius/

The death-wish is a significant feature of his argument.
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