Detering Thinks "City of God" a Medieval Forgery

[Stephan Huller]

http://www.hermann-detering.de/Projekte.htm

[Clive]

Augustinus (354-430) is considered to be the outstanding and most important Catholic philosopher of late antiquity. His autobiographical »Confessions« are classified as belonging to world literature.

In his book, Hermann Detering questions the genuineness of the work. For quite some time already scholars have pointed out that the phrasing of the »Confessions« is quite different from that of Augustine’s other works. Detering comes back to the topic, analyzes the text in dept, compares it with other writings, and arrives at the conclusion that it actually is a medieval fabrication.

The conjectured factual author, Anselm of Canterbury, is not an unknown person, and the reconstructed genesis of the »Confessions« throws the practice of forgery in the Middle Ages into sharp relief.

If the idea of plagiarism did not exist, and as, for example, the Library of Alexandria spent centuries rewriting Homer, would people like Ambrose have genuinely thought that what they were doing was honing and polishing what Augustine and Paul and... would have said? And as such they were acting completely honourably?

Does anyone criticise conductors or directors for their new productions of music or plays? Is West Side Story a forgery of Romeo and Juliet?

[perseusomega9]

To use orthodox Paulinesque apologetics; This was personal testimony and experience so of course its not going to compare to Augustine's other writings

/inquiry

/cue MM

[Diogenes the Cynic]

Forgery is an ugly word. It would be more polite to call it "Deutero-Augustinian."

[Leucius Charinus]

Forgery is an ugly word. It would be more polite to call it "Deutero-Augustinian."

PC aside, reality consists of the good, the bad and the ugly. Forgery is fraud. It's ugly. It happens. The largest known Medieval forgery mill is known as Pseudo-Isidore, and operated in 9th century France. Corbie Abbey is mentioned as a focus of operations. See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pseudo-Isidorian_Decretals .... one hundred years after the forgery mill commenced operations, Detering's suspect Anselm joins a French abbey.

Detering's suspect: Anselm_of_Canterbury ... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anselm_of_Canterbury

• When he was twenty-three, Anselm left home, crossed the Alps and wandered through Burgundy and France.[3] Attracted by the fame of his countryman Lanfranc (then prior of the Benedictine Abbey of Bec), Anselm arrived in Normandy in 1059. The following year, after some time at Avranches, he entered the abbey as a novice at the age of twenty-seven; in doing so he submitted himself to the Rule of Saint Benedict, which was to reshape his thought over the next decade.

The output of the Pseudo-Isidore forgery mill was accepted by all scholars (e.g. Thomas Aquinas et al) as genuine until the 16th and 17th century.

Does Detering mention Pseudo-Isidore?



IDK.

[Blood]

Forgery is an ugly word. It would be more polite to call it "Deutero-Augustinian."

[andrewcriddle]

It seems generally accepted that early medieval thinkers such as John Scotus Eriugena knew the City of God There would be major problems claiming it was unknown before Anselm.

Andrew Criddle

[bcedaifu]

It seems generally accepted that early medieval thinkers such as John Scotus Eriugena knew the City of God There would be major problems claiming it was unknown before Anselm.

Thanks, Andrew, it is one of Stephan Huller's most perceptive observations, that you are one of this forum's great treasures. Your submissions to the forum are always instructive, helpful, and encouraging. We all appreciate your skill.

In this circumstance, your rejoinder is most appropriate, and I am challenging it, feebly, only to encourage you to elaborate a bit more. I am not suggesting that you are wrong, simply that one needs a tad more detail, before rejecting Detering's hypothesis: City of God is a forgery.

Your point, concerns Eriugena, an Irishman, (who can find fault with that!!!), Greek scholar, clearly fluent in both Latin and Gaelic. I like the guy. But, I think his contribution needs further discussion.

a. Περί φύσεων seems to be the work in question, i.e. the one that references City of God. Perhaps I err on that point as well....

b. I have not read this text, but it is my understanding (and I hope you will correct me) that a couple hundred years after it had been written, this work was under attack as being heretical.

c. Then, since our manuscript tradition of this work is limited to a ??? few/single ?? copies, the question arises, whether or not our extant copy, dating from the turbulent times of the Crusades/Knights Templar/Inquisition, has not been rewritten, to conform to City of God? Was it not a medieval tradition, in several monasteries, to recopy ancient texts, with "corrections"?

In other words, how confident can we be, that Eriugena possessed a genuine copy of City of God, given the fact that he was also, like Augustine, a neo Platonist? How confident can we be, that Eriugena translated Augustine from Greek to Latin? Where is the source for that supposition? Why couldn't Eriugena have created the Latin text de novo, without any Greek text before him? Are we relying upon Jerome's disagreements with Augustine, to verify authenticity of City of God? How confident are we, if Eriugena in fact did translate Augustine from the Greek, that he did not replace, with some contemporary 9th century solutions, theological dilemnae elaborated initially in Tertullian's North African backyard, from the early fifth century CE, when City of God supposedly had been authored? Isn't it strange that the extensive Greek monastery tradition of copying original Greek manuscripts, failed to include a copy of Augustine's Greek text? Is it not a tiny bit disconcerting that the Nag Hammadi library, which includes texts supporting Valentinians, and even a copy of Plato's Republic, has nothing referencing Augustine's text?

Looking at the question from the other point of view, i.e. presupposing the correctness of Detering's thesis, is there evidence from the Latin text of Anselm, e.g. "Proslogion", compared with "De Civitate Dei", to suggest potential authorship by Anselm of the supposed ancient text of Augustine? Have we no witness to existence of City of God, before the ninth century, other than Eriugena, in view of the Irishman's supposed "heretical views"?

[Leucius Charinus]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Johannes_Scotus_Eriugena

• Johannes Scottus Eriugena was an Irishman, educated in Ireland. He moved to France (about 845) and took over the Palatine Academy at the invitation of Carolingian King Charles the Bald. He succeeded Alcuin of York (735–804) as head of the Palace School.[1] The reputation of this school, part of the Carolingian Renaissance, seems to have increased greatly under Eriugena's leadership, and the philosopher himself was treated with indulgence by the king. Whereas Alcuin was a schoolmaster rather than a philosopher, Eriugena was a noted Greek scholar, a skill which, though rare at that time in Western Europe, was used in the learning tradition of Early and Medieval Ireland, as evidenced by the use of Greek script in medieval Irish manuscripts.[1] He remained in France for at least thirty years, and it was almost certainly during this period that he wrote his various works.

Johannes Scottus Eriugena moved to Carolingian France at the precise time the LATIN Pseudo-Isidore forgery mill was flourishing. Vaticanus latinus Ottobonianus 93 (mid-9th century)

I have often wondered whether Pseudo-Isidore had a GREEK forgery mill running in parallel with the Latin one.

Why do things by half measures?

[Clive]

Another obvious product of what sounds like Hollywood sans chemistry, electrics, and optics might of course be King Arthur!