“Hosanna in the highest heaven!”: a reference to the crucifixion in outer space?

[schillingklaus]

The dead sea scrolls don't contain the parables; and without the parables, the Book of Henoch does not make the sense which JohnT wants to force Giuseppe to read into it.

[John T]

In other words, the crucifixion took place in outer space because the Dead Sea Scrolls don't contain parables?

That fallacy of logic is known as a non sequitur.

What I was suggesting is that the sayings of Jesus regarding his relationship to heaven makes more sense if you factor in the Enochic scrolls from the Essenes at Qumran.

Likewise, the Book of Genesis and Jubilees makes more sense once you factor in The Genesis Apocryphon. (1Q20). Or vice versa.

[John T]

P.s.: I don't see traces of a teacher in the earliest sources.

What earliest sources?

Didaskaios = teacher.

What early Greek source for John 13:14 do you have that says otherwise?

[Thor]

Yes, I hoped so, no problem with that.

Still, with that out of the way, it doesn't explain your persistent conflation with heaven and an outer space crucifixion of Jesus. It is as if your searching for a way to invalidate the historical and human Jesus. It simply doesn't work. Especially if you take the time to learn Enochic Judaism (Dead Sea Scrolls) you would understand what Jesus was really referring to. No mystery, no outer space crucifixion.
Just an off-shoot Judaic religion based on the metaphysics of Plato.

Matthew 21:9:

“Hosanna in the highest heaven!”

Metaphysics of Plato, or Aristotle for that matter, see heaven as one single form. Highest heaven comes from concept of seven heavens relating to Babylonian flat earth cosmology.

Look at this part from burial practice in Egypt from same period.

The Ritual of Embalming Papyrus

Thou criest to Isis, and Osiris heareth thy voice, and Anubis cometh unto thee to invoke thee. Thou receivest the oil of the country of Manu which hath come from the East, and R riseth upon thee at the gates of the horizon, at the holy doors of Neith. Thou goest therein, thy soul is in the upper heaven, and thy body is in the lower heaven . . . O Osiris, may the Eye of Horus cause that which floweth forth from it to come to thee, and to thy heart for ever!"

Flesh remains, soul ascends. Just wanted to clarify what upper heaven meant.

[Giuseppe]

That fallacy of logic is known as a non sequitur.

my specific point here on Osannah etc can be (and probably is) wrong, but a non sequitur would be to conclude that "therefore" the outer space crucifixion in 1 Corinthians 2:6-8 is debunked. It isn't, unless one persuades me that the demons could be conceived as working directly (without human intermediaries) on the earth, too.

The Teacher of Righteousness was killed by an "impious priest": his death was therefore earthly.

[John T]

...persuades [persuade] me that the demons could be conceived as working directly (without human intermediaries) on the earth, too.

Putting aside the misconceptions of Plato's metaphysics regarding the levels of heaven, let's focus on what you would agree is acceptable conditions for the invalidation of your theory: Crucifixion in outer space.

Can you narrow it down? What do you mean by; demons and their works which have no human intermediaries?

John T

[Giuseppe]

Can you narrow it down? What do you mean by; demons and their works which have no human intermediaries?

the fact that in 1 Corinthians 2:6-8 the entities who crucified directly the Lord of glory are demons, according to a reading of the passage without preconceptions.

One has to wait the reading of the first Gospel to introduce the suspicion, and even, by then, only the suspicion, that Paul meant really that the demons crucified Jesus not directly (i.e. by using Pilate as direct agents).

[John T]

Can you narrow it down? What do you mean by; demons and their works which have no human intermediaries?

the fact that in 1 Corinthians 2:6-8 the entities who crucified directly the Lord of glory are demons, according to a reading of the passage without preconceptions.

One has to wait the reading of the first Gospel to introduce the suspicion, and even, by then, only the suspicion, that Paul meant really that the demons crucified Jesus not directly (i.e. by using Pilate as direct agents).

1Corinthians 2:6-8 "Yet among the mature we do speak wisdom, though it is not a wisdom of this age or the rulers of this age, who are doomed to perish. But we speak God's wisdom, secret and hidden, which God decreed before the ages for our glory. None of the rulers of this age understood this; for if they had, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory."

Bold italics for emphasis.

There is no reference to demons in this passage or an outer space crucifixion. Paul is clearly pointing out ignorant earthly rulers ordered the earthly crucifixion of Jesus. If they had wisdom they would not have done it.

You theory is thus invalidated.

[Giuseppe]

Can you narrow it down? What do you mean by; demons and their works which have no human intermediaries?

the fact that in 1 Corinthians 2:6-8 the entities who crucified directly the Lord of glory are demons, according to a reading of the passage without preconceptions.

One has to wait the reading of the first Gospel to introduce the suspicion, and even, by then, only the suspicion, that Paul meant really that the demons crucified Jesus not directly (i.e. by using Pilate as direct agents).

1Corinthians 2:6-8 "Yet among the mature we do speak wisdom, though it is not a wisdom of this age or the rulers of this age, who are doomed to perish. But we speak God's wisdom, secret and hidden, which God decreed before the ages for our glory. None of the rulers of this age understood this; for if they had, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory."

Bold italics for emphasis.

There is no reference to demons in this passage or an outer space crucifixion. Paul is clearly pointing out ignorant earthly rulers ordered the earthly crucifixion of Jesus. If they had wisdom they would not have done it.

You theory is thus invalidated.

unfortunately for your certainty, the majority of scholars think that the "rulers of this age" == demons.

[schillingklaus]

No, it is nowhere near invalidated, as the rulers (archons) of this world are Yaldabaoth (Jewish God) and his angels, who are to be distinguished strictly from the Father. Only uncritical scholars and euhemerizers are unable to tell the Father from the Jewish god.