Christ Staked --- kata tas graphas

[Ulan]

People need to spend more time considering the implications of ethnoi converting to forms of Judaism for hundreds of years prior to the first century.

You actually don't need Galilean Jewish revolts in the first century or a historical Jesus or Paul to explain Christianity. You just need ethnoi reading the Septuagint.

I think this is easily forgotten. With only the NT as guidance, all you see is Judea and Galilee, and most people's idea of Judaism is that of rabbinical Judaism of much newer times. I'm not sure how much "Palestine" there actually is in Christianity.

[maryhelena]

Corned by these facts [of the diversity of Judaism and the religious innovations taking place in response to Roman rule of Judea], objections will concede that some Jews evidently were able to conceive of such a thing, but then insist that some compelling event must have precipitated so wild a break with Jewish thinking, and only the crucifixion of an actual historical man could have done such a thing. But that's a non sequitur. If early-first-century Jews could conceive of a dying messiah becoming a celestial Lord (and clearly they could), they could conceive of this being true of a celestial man as easily as a historical one. In other words, these objectors admit that some Jews could conceive of a historically crucified man becoming celestial Lord. But if the Jews could do that, they could conceive of a celestially crucified man becoming celestial Lord. Which negates this objection from the start.

If "some Jews could conceive of a historically crucified man becoming celestial Lord', ....if the Jews could do that, they could conceive of a celestially crucified man becoming celestial Lord. .

But why the choice here for Carrier? Why not acknowledge that both positions have validity? The Jerusalem 'below' and the Jerusalem 'above' require not one crucified figure but two crucified figures. The Pauline christ figure can be viewed as being 'crucified' in a celestial realm - that's an intellectual or philosophical position. Such a position does not rule out a historical crucified figure as having relevance for the gospel crucifixion story.

That some Jews could have developed a spiritual/philosophical, or intellectual, take on the historical crucifixion of a messiah figure has greater probability than ideas about a celestial entity crucified in the heavens then morphing into human form. Acknowledge the value of intellectual developments by all means - but not at the cost of diminishing the value and relevance of historical realities.

[Peter Kirby]

If "some Jews could conceive of a historically crucified man becoming celestial Lord', ....if the Jews could do that, they could conceive of a celestially crucified man becoming celestial Lord. .

But why the choice here for Carrier? Why not acknowledge that both positions have validity?

That is Carrier's point exactly. Both positions have validity (and, moreover, the same degree of validity).

[Stephan Huller]

so the fact that none of you can provide any evidence or examples does not factor into your certainty. Cart, horse

[Stephan Huller]

and what expertise does Carrier have in this field of study where 90 percent of relevant texts are preserved in languages he is totally clueless. oh I forgot. you all like his POV. that's what's decisive

[MrMacSon]

so the fact that none of you can provide any evidence or examples does not factor into your certainty. Cart, horse

This could apply to your posts about the Marcion texts.

[MattMorales]

I don't see any substance to this post. Jews wouldn't have expected their God or messiah to have been hanged. That's a huge hurdle to overcome. In fact I think its impossible to overcome because there is nothing in the Jewish writings. And I know all the early references. It's impossible to reconcile these ideas.

I have to agree with this one. Atonement theology is one thing, but surely there would be methods of "sacrifice" more acceptable to prospective Jewish converts than crucifixion.

[Peter Kirby]

so the fact that none of you can provide any evidence or examples

Partly because of laziness, partly because I expect any potential examples to be excluded from evidence with this or that excuse, partly because the search for examples tends to give the benefit of the doubt to the assumption that Judaism was immune to syncretism, when it should really be the other way around (given that every culture everywhere is susceptible to syncretism)... but what the hell.

For a definition, the Encyclopedia Britannica says this about "religious syncretism":

religious syncretism, the fusion of diverse religious beliefs and practices. Instances of religious syncretism—as, for example, Gnosticism (a religious dualistic system that incorporated elements from the Oriental mystery religions), Judaism, Christianity, and Greek religious philosophical concepts—were particularly prevalent during the Hellenistic period (c. 300 bc–c. ad 300). The fusion of cultures that was effected by the conquest of Alexander the Great (4th century bc), his successors, and the Roman Empire tended to bring together a variety of religious and philosophical views that resulted in a strong tendency toward religious syncretism.

A tightly focused matrix of time and place is not really appropriate for this search. Firstly because we are interested in only the question of plausibility when it comes to finding these examples. Secondly because there may be only 0, 1, or a finite number of such shifts/syncretisms in any given time and place, as such is the nature of history that not everything happens at once... and Christianity itself most certainly qualifies as an example, for which we have enormous evidence, but let's move on.

Influences from Judaism, Hellenistic philosophy, and Egyptian religion:

http://www.sacred-texts.com/cla/pr/pr11.htm

Philo borrowed freely from other systems as well wherever he found elements that were useful to himself. Pythagorean tradition was particularly attractive to him. He spoke of this school with veneration and was himself characterized as a Pythagorean by Clement, of his own city. But he was at least equally indebted to Stoicism, and recent writers have tended to emphasize his affinities in this direction. On the philosophical side, Philo presents a notable example of the eclectic tendencies of the time, and one reason why it is so difficult to reduce his thinking to a definite system is because of its syncretistic character.

The characteristic contribution of Philo's land to the religious syncretism of the Roman Empire was the cult of Isis. ... In the ritual regeneration of this mystery religion, we undoubtedly have an important and immediate source of Philo's theory of mental regeneration. He was acquainted with the potent cult practices of the Isiacists--at least in a general way. He himself was conscious of mystical longings for contact with the unseen, fellowship with the deity, and the transformation of his ephemeral human nature into something more permanent and divine--desires which the Isis cult aimed to satisfy by its elaborate and impressive ritual. As a true Jew, even though a liberal Jew of the Diaspora, Philo could not think of participating in those rites. So he did the next best thing. He rationalized and intellectualized them and found in the experiences of his own mental and emotional life the satisfactions and guaranties that others found in cult practices.

Influences from Judaism and Stoicism:

http://www.earlyjewishwritings.com/4maccabees.html

Martin McNamara writes: "4 Maccabees is a philosophical treatise that could be entitled: 'On the Supremacy of Reason over the Emotions.' It opens with the words: 'The subject that I am about to discuss is most philosophical, that is, whether devout reason is sovereign over the emotions.' First there is a philosophical introduction (1:1-3:18) in which the author tells us that he is about to demonstrate his point best 'from the noble bravery of those who died for the sake of virtue, Eleazar and the seven brothers and their mother' (1:8). The author of this work belongs to the Stoic tradition, combining its principles with those of Judaism. He then moves on to the story of the Maccabean martyrs, referring to the High Priest Onias III, 'that noble and good man', and to Apollonius' attempt on the treasury of the temple (3:9-4:14). After this there follows (5:1-7:23) a detailed account of the martyrdom of Eleazar, 'leader of the flock . . ., of priestly family, learned in the law, advanced in age' (5:4) after which is narrated the martyrdom of the seven brothers (8:1-12:19). The author then gives a philosophical interpretation of the events (13:1-14:10), followed by an account of the martyrdom of the mother of the seven (14:11-17:1) and the author's panegyric of her (17:2-18). To this brave woman, the real heroine of the story, the author reserves the closing oration, one in which she expatiates on the principles that guided her life. Her words are addressed to her children, by which all God-fearing Jews, not merely the seven martyrs are intended." (Intertestamental Literature, pp. 233-234)

Influences from Judaism, Platonism, and Stoicism:

http://www.jewishencyclopedia.com/artic ... -hellenism

Greek ethics cast in the mold of the Jewish Wisdom literature is presented in the Wisdom of Solomon. Solomon appears as the, speaker, addressing a hortatory discourse to his royal colleagues who rule over the heathen peoples. He shows them the folly of impiety, and especially of idolatry, and exhorts them to follow true wisdom and to serve God. Although the author may have addressed himself principally to Jewish readers, yet the descriptions of the dangers of impiety and the folly of idolatry presuppose also a pagan audience, or one that included at least Jews who had adopted pagan practises. In his conception of Wisdom he follows Prov. viii. and ix. andEcclus. (Sirach) xxiv.; but Wisdom becomes in his hands an independent being, existing apart from the Deity, and, in a way, acting as the mediator between the divine activity and the world. The terms in which he describes this mediation show the influence of Greek philosophy, especially of Stoicism, recalling the doctrine of divine reason immanent in the world. The book follows the Platonic psychology, according to which the soul has an independent existence, living only for a time in the earthly house of the body, that crumbles again into dust. The author was probably an Alexandrian Hellenist who took up the thought that was subsequently further developed by Philo (see Wisdom, Book of).

Influences from Judaism and Greek philosophy, intending to prove the latter developed out of the former:

http://www.jewishencyclopedia.com/artic ... -hellenism

Although the author of the Wisdom of Solomon touches upon Greek philosophy, he yet remains within the limits of the Palestinian Wisdom literature. But Aristobulus was a full-fledged Alexandrian, thoroughly acquainted with Greek philosophy and accepting it. He was a contemporary of Ptolemy VI., Philometor, living about 17O—15O B.C. He wrote a voluminous work on the Mosaic laws, which was not a commentary but a free paraphrase of the text of the Pentateuch, together with a philosophic explanation of its laws. He directly addresses Ptolemy Philometor and an exclusively pagan audience. He undertakes to show that the Peripatetic philosophy was influenced by the Pentateuch and the Hebrew Prophets (Clement of Alexandria, "Stromata," v. 14, 97); he essays to prove that all the Greek philosophers and many Greek poets, as well as Aristotle, borrowed from the Pentateuch, and that the entire Greek culture is derived from the Old Testament. He especially endeavors to remove from the Old Testament conception of God the reproach of anthropomorphism by explaining the anthropomorphic allusions as symbols for spiritual relations. There is no reason for doubting the genuineness of this work of Aristobulus, as both older and more recent authorities have done, since it belongs both in thought and in expression to Hellenistic literature. The interspersed Greek verse, which is obviously spurious, but which Aristobulus certainly regarded as genuine, was inserted in agreement with a practise general in Hellenistic literature, so that its presence is no argument against the genuineness of the work (see Jew. Encyc. ii. 97).

Influences from Judaism and Hellenism on literature:

http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jso ... enism.html

The most obvious instances of Greek influence are to be seen in Jewish literature of the Hellenistic period. In Palestine, even Ben Sira , whose opposition to Hellenism before the Maccabean rebellion is manifest, has a number of aphorisms which seem to be derived from Aesop, Theognis, and Euripides. The Testament of Joseph and the Book of Judith show Greek influence in the introduction of erotic motifs found in Greek romances. Similarly, the Book of Tobit , composed either in Palestine or Antioch in the second century B.C.E., shows Hellenistic influence in the form of its romance. Aside from Justus of Tiberias and Josephus, no Palestinian author is known who definitely wrote in Greek, and indeed there is no apparent Greek influence in the first century B.C.E. "Biblical Antiquities" of Pseudo-Philo. But in his paraphrase of the Bible, Josephus, in his eagerness to answer antisemitic charges, makes numerous changes. Thus his Abraham is presented as worthy of Greek political and philosophical ideals: he possesses skill in persuasion, the power of logical deduction, and scientific knowledge, and, in a show of liberalism, he offers to be converted by the Egyptians if he fails to convince them. Samson is an Aristotelian-like megalopsychos ("great-souled man"); Saul is a kind of Jewish Achilles; and Solomon a kind of Jewish Oedipus. Finally, Josephus' portraits of Moses and of Esther are in the tradition of Hellenistic romance, with emphasis on erotic elements. Indeed, the life of Moses used by Artapanus, Philo, and Josephus contained details borrowed from the legendary life of Pythagoras.

There has been much debate on the degree of Hellenic influence on the rabbis themselves. A number of tales about Hillel recall Socratic and Cynic anecdotes. Joshua b. Hananiah's discussions with Athenians, Alexandrians, and Roman philosophers (Bek. 8b; Nid. 69b; Sanh. 90b), Meir's reported disputations with the Cynic Oenomaus of Gadara (Gen. R. 68:20) – a city a little east of the Jordan which also produced three other famous ancient Greek writers, Menippus the satirist, Meleager the poet, and Philodemus the Epicurean philosopher and poet – as well as Judah ha-Nasi's discussions with "Antoninus" ; Av. Zar. 10a–11a, etc.) and rabbinic condemnation of Epicureanism (Mish. Sanh. 11:1; Avot, 1:3; etc.), all reflect rabbinic interest in and concern about Hellenism (see Classical Greek Literature ). We know of only one rabbi, however, Elisha b. Avuyah , upon whom Greek influence was so great that he actually became a Gnostic heretic.

Influences from Judaism and Hellenism on art:

http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jso ... enism.html

Greek influence, as Goodenough has amply shown, is clearly to be seen in Hellenistic Jewish art and architecture. Thus Josephus tells that the courts and colonnades of the Temple built by Herod in Jerusalem were in the Greek style. Pagan and syncretistic art has been discovered in the synagogues of both Palestine and the Diaspora (especially at Dura-Europos in Mesopotamia), in direct violation of stringent biblical and rabbinic prohibitions. It cannot be argued that these motifs were merely decorative, since they were employed in a similar way by earlier and contemporary pagans and by contemporary and later Christians. Goodenough has concluded that these figures had meaning as symbols; that these symbols constituted a sub-rational lingua franca among Jews and non-Jews alike, just as the Greek language provided a rational bond among them; and that they represented a kind of allegorization through art, of the sort that Philo had attempted through philosophy. Additional evidence that some Jews adopted certain pagan elements can be seen in the charms (that is, verbal incantations) and apotropaic amulets (or the material objects themselves containing graphic symbols used to ward off evil) which Goodenough has collected.

It is not surprising that contact with Hellenism should have produced deviations from Jewish observance. Philo (Post., 35–40) mentions the extreme allegorists, who insisted on interpreting the ceremonial laws as only a parable: these are undoubtedly forerunners of Pauline antinomianism. Others relaxed their Jewish observance in order to become citizens of Alexandria, an act that involved worship of the city gods. Actual apostasy was apparently rare, though there is mention of the case of Philo's nephew, Tiberius Julius Alexander , as well as those of Dositheos and Helicon, all of whom pursued careers at the imperial court. Philo on one occasion (Spec., 3:29) does attack intermarriage, but the virulent antisemitism in Alexandria must have served as a deterrent. A more common reaction to the challenge of secularism was for Jews to cease religious observance except on the Day of Atonement (Philo, Spec. 1:186). Finally, there is some evidence that the one city where Christianity seems to have made real inroads in converting Jews was the one most deeply influenced by Hellenism, Alexandria.

Influences from Judaism and Greco-Roman culture on ritual:

There is no question that the Seder, which is celebrated on the first night of Pesah - or on the first two nights in the Diaspora – is the central ritual of the holiday of Passover. But what is the origin of the Seder and the Haggadah?

The Torah instructs us to slaughter the Korban Pesah, the paschal lamb, to eat it with matzot and marror, and to sprinkle some blood on the lintel and the two doorposts (Exodus 12:22 ff.) It also instructs the father to teach his son about the Exodus on Pesah (Exodus 12:26; 13:6, 14; Deut. 6:12 and cf. Exodus 10:2). (1) These mitzvot, however, are a far cry from the many rituals which we do at the Seder and from the literary forms which we recite in the Haggadah.

Furthermore, the Seder and the Haggadah are also missing from the Second Temple period descriptions of Pesah, including a papyrus from Elephantine (419 B.C.E.), the book of Jubilees (late second century B.C.E.), Philo (20 B.C.E.-50 C.E.), and Josephus. (2)

They are first mentioned in the Mishnah and Tosefta (Pesahim Chapter 10) which scholars date to either shortly before or shortly after the Destruction of the second temple in 70 C.E. (3) What is the source of the elaborate rituals and literary forms of the Seder and Haggadah?

In the first half of the twentieth century, Lewy, Baneth, Krauss, and Goldschmidt drew attention to the fact that the forms of the Seder are based on Graeco-Roman table manners and dietary habits. But the most detailed evidence of this borrowing was provided in 1957 when Siegfried Stein published “The Influence of Symposia Literature on the Literary Form of the Pesah Haggadah” in The Journal of Jewish Studies.(4) Since then, Stein’s basic thesis has been adopted with variations by various scholars who have written about the origins of the Seder. (5) Stein proved in a very convincing fashion that many of the Seder rituals and literary forms found in Mishnah and Tosefta Pesahim and in the Haggadah were borrowed from the Hellenistic banquet or symposium. Let us first compare the rituals.

Influences from Judaism and Hellenism:

http://books.google.com/books?id=TXlcEf ... as&f=false

Such details, and the persistent allusions to Greek literature and history, suggest a conscious attempt to align Jews with Greeks in their common Egyptian environment. Jacobson, perceiving echoes of the Greek myth of Danaus (who left Egypt to found the Greek nation), suggests taht Ezekiel aimed 'to elicit sympathy and respect for the Jews from his Greek audience, showing that both Greeks and Jews have similar ancestral stories of persecution, escape, and return to a homeland' (1983:25). ... The chief symbol of this cultural liaison between Jews and Greeks is Moses, the central figure in the play. From the prologue onwards, he is portrayed in the guise of a tragic hero, a foundling (like Ion) who achieved greatness, even a murderer (like Oedipus) who fled the consequences of his deed but saved his nation.

Influences from Judaism, Christianity, Hellenistic religion, and Roman religion:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sibylline_Books

The Sibylline Books should not be confused with the so-called Sibylline Oracles, twelve books of prophecies thought to be of Judaeo-Christian origin. ... The Sibylline Oracles were quoted by the Roman-Jewish historian Josephus (late 1st century) as well as by numerous Christian writers of the second century, including Athenagoras of Athens who, in a letter addressed to Marcus Aurelius in ca. AD 176, quoted verbatim a section of the extant Oracles, in the midst of a lengthy series of other classical and pagan references such as Homer and Hesiod, stating several times that all these works should already be familiar to the Roman Emperor. Copies of the actual Sibylline Books (as reconstituted in 76 BC) were still in the Roman Temple at this time. The Oracles are nevertheless thought by modern scholars to be anonymous compilations that assumed their final form in the fifth century, after the Sibylline Books perished. They are a miscellaneous collection of Jewish and Christian portents of future disasters, that may illustrate the confusions about sibyls that were accumulating among Christians of Late Antiquity.

Influences from Judaism, Christianity, and magical belief:

http://www.st-andrews.ac.uk/divinity/rt ... acts/tsol/

The Testament of Solomon (TSol) is not really a testament, but rather an example of magical literature, to which a number of features of the genre testament have been added.

The issue of Jewish or Christian origin is difficult to determine due to the syncretistic nature of magic in general, but allusions in the book suggest either Christian composition or redaction. The book contains what might be termed Jewish elements, but these are not sufficiently clear for us to postulate with certainty a Jewish work behind TSol. Most scholars argue for a date in the early third century A.D.

TSol is comprised of a haggadic folktale telling how Solomon used a magic ring to force the demons to help build the Temple, and a collection of ancient magical, medical, astrological, angelological and demonological lore. The book is intended as an 'encyclopaedia of demonology' and may well have been used as a manual for exorcisms.

The book stands in the developing tradition of Jewish speculation about Solomon's magic powers, and shares a number of features with Jewish magical literature, including: the use of Solomon's seal-ring, name, incantations, and similar adjurations and magical acts for controlling demons.

Influences from Judaism, Christianity, Zoroastrianism, and possibly Buddhism:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Manichaeism

Manichaeism may be better described as a unique phenomenon of Aramaic Babylonia, occurring in proximity to two other new Aramaic religious phenomena, Talmudic Judaism and Babylonian Mandaeism, which were also appearing in Babylonia in roughly the third century AD.

Influences from Judaism, Christianity, possibly Zoroastrianism and possibly John the Baptist (also possibly pre-Christian):

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mandaeism

Mandaeism or Mandaeanism ... is a gnostic religion ... with a strongly dualistic worldview. Its adherents, the Mandaeans, revere Adam, Abel, Seth, Enosh, Noah, Shem, Aram and especially John the Baptist, but reject Abraham, Moses and Jesus of Nazareth.

Influences from Judaism, Christianity, possibly Muhammad, etc ... Islam (no link).

Influences from Judaism, Christianity, and Hermetism:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kabbalah

From the Renaissance onwards Jewish Kabbalah texts entered non-Jewish culture, where they were studied and translated by Christian Hebraists and Hermetic occultists. Syncretic traditions of Christian Cabala and Hermetic Qabalah developed independently of Jewish Kabbalah, reading the Jewish texts as universal ancient wisdom. Both adapted the Jewish concepts freely from their Judaic understanding, to merge with other theologies, religious traditions and magical associations.

http://books.google.com/books?id=IAegAw ... ic&f=false

After the practice of Judaism was outlawed in Spain, and shortly thereafter in Portugal, if formerly Jewish people wished to continue practising the faith of their ancestors, the only option was secret worship. But a dual allegiance to Judaism and Roman Catholicism quickly led, within the span of a few generations, to the development of a hybrid faith, born of oppressive circumstances, but quickly assuming a normative character. ... the paranoia of the crypto-Jew survives in the practice of Marranism, even when the forces that created the phenomenon were long gone, and despite the fact that after a certain point no one cared who was a Jew and who was not.

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/israel/los ... tml#chiang

Chiang-Min China
"Behold, These are coming from afar. These from the north and the west and these from the land of Sinim." This prophecy, spoken by Isaiah, promised the return of Lost Israelites from all corners of the Earth and from Sinim. Interestingly, Sinim is the Hebrew word for China. In fort-like villages in the high mountain ranges on the Chinese-Tibetan border live the Chiang-Min of West Szechuan. It has been claimed that the Chiang-Min are descendants of the ancient Israelites who arrived in China several hundred years before Christ.

The missionary Torrance, who visited Cheng-du in the early party of this century, insisted that the Chiang-Min strongly resemble the Israelite branch of the Semitic race. He observed that several of their customs were reminiscent of ancient Israelite tradition. Said Torrance: "The plough the Chiang use is similar to the ancient Israelite plough and is drawn by two oxen, never by an ox and an ass. This in accordance with the Biblical stipulation: 'You shall not plough with an ox and ass together.'" The Chaing-Min believe in one God. During "times of calamity or acute distress," writes Torrance, "they issue a moan or cry which sounds like 'Yawei', suggestive of the biblical name of God. The Scottish missionary also claims that the Chinese conception of Sacrifice came from the ancient Israelites.

Finally, Chiang-Min priests, like the ancient Israelite priests, wear girdles to bind their robes, and bear a sacred rod shaped like a serpent, reminiscent of the brass serpent fashioned by Moses in the wilderness.

I will add that there is something of a commutative property of syncretism: whether you want to see it as X culture being influenced by Y or Y culture being influenced by X, the amalgam XY could be very similar (to YX, syncretism in the other direction), even if the origin and development are quite different scenarios. Therefore, even if Judaism is a culture and religion that cannot be influenced by any other, if any other culture can be influenced by Judaism, the result is syncretism with Jewish elements in the mix. (Of course these still are distinct hypotheses and offer different explanations of the evidence.)

I apologize for not having more time to make a more coherent or persuasive presentation.

[Stephan Huller]

But we were discussing something quite specific. It started with something worthless from 'robert j' which then segued into a more polished but equally worthless argument from Richard Carrier. My original request was for someone to provide me with one example of a scripture that foretold of a crucified messiah or God. I don't deal with Richard Carrier's arguments because I think it isn't worth my time. These things aren't developed from actual evidence. He hasn't any more expertise in these matters than avi or mountainman. Someone show me these 'scriptures' that point to Jews eagerly awaiting the messiah or God to be crucified.

Because I like to develop my arguments from tradition I point to the Marcionites who said that the scriptures did not foretell what was about to happen in the gospel. I know, I know, I am too fixated on actual evidence and tradition. I should just 'let myself go' and accept the 'fact' that Jews 'must have' interpreted the scriptures this way just because a bunch of uninformed white people tell me so. But all the same I would like some examples.

[Stephan Huller]

And to make my point absolutely clear - the position I take is (as always) aligned with the Marcionites. The manner in which the gospel unfolded was NOT foretold by the Law and prophets, was not laid out as a mystery hidden in the scriptures. As such the Jews were not expecting this to take place and perhaps because they did not have advanced knowledge of these events, because the circumstances described in the gospel were not announced by 'types' in the scriptures, ended up crucifying Jesus the god who stood in the fire and talked to Moses. This is how I have come to understand the evidence from antiquity.