Christ Staked --- kata tas graphas

[maryhelena]

It's good to see skepticism of the Couchoud (and the ersatz "Carrier-Doherty") hypothesis alive and well, particularly in the non-HJ camp. I've been in some circles where it dominates the discussion entirely.

At best I think this throws a rut in the whole "well why doesn't Paul say his cross was put in the ground a little crooked and that his mother played bingo every other saturday and that his lineage through David was only on his stepfather's side" kind of argument... there is a little bit of the assumption that Paul is writing to an audience that shares a _few_ assumptions, anyway, at least. (Or, if we swing that way, that the pseudepigraphic Pauline epistles are for an audience with like assumptions.)

Well as for me........I side with Thomas Brodie: Neither the gospel Jesus nor the Paul of the epistles are historical figures...

All my above point/question relates to is the words put into the mouth of the literary NT figure of Paul. A figure that Carrier himself takes to be a historical figure. Hence, the words of the NT Paul relating to the crucifixion being a stumbling block for Jews - need explanation/interpretation as to what type of crucifixion this figure is referencing....

[MrMacSon]

It's good to see skepticism of the Couchoud (and the ersatz "Carrier-Doherty") hypothesis alive and well, particularly in the non-HJ camp. I've been in some circles where it dominates the discussion entirely.

Where what dominates the discussion, Peter?

• 1/ the 'Couchoud' (and the ersatz "Carrier-Doherty") hypothesis? (or one of these); or
  2/ skepticism of that^ hypothesis?

I suspect .1. (dominates the discussion in some circles), but best to be sure ...

[PhilosopherJay]

I like this post.

It nicely lays out some of the different streams of evidence that the passion story is a narrative construct that is not based on an historical event, but based on the psychological needs and desires of a Jewish/Post-Jewish community.

Of the New Testament, it is only the passion story, minus the dubious resurrection tale, that reads as if it might have been based on an historical event. However, "might be" does not mean it was, and it is quite conceivable, as the evidence presented here suggests, that it was not.


Warmly,

Jay Raskin

The cut-and-paste nature of the passion stories in the NT Gospels has been widely characterized, and the dependence on the Jewish scriptures is there for all to see. This situation presents at least two options ---

The apologetic explanation that a first-century CE human Jesus came to fulfill the scriptures requires faith --- that is, belief in the supernatural such that the prophets and other authors of the Hebrew scriptures were inspired by a divine being so they could foretell the future.

The other option does not require the supernatural. The earliest believers in the Christ, employing allegorical midrash, found previously hidden meanings in the scriptures leading them to believe that their Christ had suffered, died, and was resurrected sometime in the distant past (or in a heavenly realm). The later writers of the NT Gospels used the scriptures to construct their elaborate tales, including the passion.

Paul’s Christ was “staked”. He also described the event as “hanging on a tree/ beam of wood/ wood stocks”, Greek xylou (ξύλου),

“Christ redeemed us from the curse of the law, having become a curse for us. For it has been written --- cursed (is) everyone hanging on a tree [or beam or stocks]; that the blessing of Abraham might come on the Gentiles in Jesus Christ; that we might receive the promise of the spirit through faith.” (Galatians 3:13-14).

Paul tells the reader that “it has been written” about this hanging, clearly a reference to the Jewish scriptures (Galatians 3:10). The scriptural source of Paul’s reference here may have been an allegorical interpretation of Deuteronomy 21:22-23. Other options have been suggested.

Certainly it would have been difficult for Paul, using a pile of scrolls, to show the Galatians and his other congregations the many widely scattered passages in the Jewish scriptures that demonstrated the events of his Christ. In a passage that may reveal some useful information in the mostly fictional Acts, it took Paul 3 days to provide a demonstration of his Christ from the Jewish scriptures. (Acts 17:1-3).

The difficulty of such a method of transmission could certainly have limited the early spread of belief in the Christ, and could have been an impetus for Mark to write his tale --- to make the Christ more accessible to all.

It was Mark that came up with the concept of a Roman execution. As Burton Mack describes,

"Mark took the basic ideas from the Christ myth but dared to imagine how the crucifixion and resurrection of the Christ might look if played out as a historical event in Jerusalem …" (Mack, 1995, p. 152).

Perhaps there are non-extant Greek translations of Hebrew scriptures that were used by some early believers in the Christ and some NT authors. Most NT writers apparently used the Septuagint, but some NT references better reflect the extant Masoretic text. One example is the use of Zechariah 12:10,

"And I will pour out on the house of David and the inhabitants of Jerusalem a spirit of grace and supplication. They will look on me, the one they have pierced, and they will mourn for him as one mourns for an only child, and grieve bitterly for him as one grieves for a firstborn son." (Zechariah 12:10 --- NIV).

The author of the Gospel of John clearly applies this reference in Zechariah to Jesus,

"And again another scripture says, they will look on him whom they pierced." (John 19:37).

Justin Martyr interpreted Zechariah 12:10 in a similar fashion from his second-century Christian perspective, (First Apology, 52).

Earl Doherty characterizes the situation,

“Scripture did not contain any full-blown crucified Messiah, but it did contain all the required ingredients. Jewish midrash was the process by which the Christian recipe was put together and baked into the doctrine ….” (Doherty, 2009, p. 87).

Philo of Alexandria (ca. 20 BCE to 50 CE), in his On the Contemplative Life, described a community of Jewish sectarians called the Therapeutae. They had separate rooms in their dwellings used only for study of the Jewish scriptures. The Therapeutae spent many hours of the day searching the scriptures for, as Philo put it, "… literal expressions as symbols revealing secret and hidden meanings …"

I’m not suggesting that the earliest believers in the Christ were Philo’s Therapeutae. But Philo’s report clearly demonstrates that Jewish sectarians of the period were actively searching for new meanings in their sacred scrolls --- new meanings to give them hope in troubled times.

robert j.

Doherty, Earl, Jesus Neither God Nor Man, Age of Reason Publications, Ottawa. 2009
Mack, B.L., Who Wrote the New Testament, HarperCollins, New York. 1995.

[Stephan Huller]

I don't know if I ever told this story before but when I was in grade 8 in Canada (I notice that in the United States you say 'eighth grade) my best friend Lawrence Williams (now deceased) started telling me that he started attending organized orgies every weekend. I remember thinking how cool he was (until I started actually thinking how disgusting it would be to be in a massive pile of sweaty horrible people). This went on for about three months until someone else at school with more brains than me called him out on his bullshit. He's stopped talking about regularly attending these organized orgies henceforth. The point is that idiots lie and even bigger idiots believe their lies.

[Peter Kirby]

It's good to see skepticism of the Couchoud (and the ersatz "Carrier-Doherty") hypothesis alive and well, particularly in the non-HJ camp. I've been in some circles where it dominates the discussion entirely.

Where what dominates the discussion, Peter?

• 1/ the 'Couchoud' (and the ersatz "Carrier-Doherty") hypothesis? (or one of these); or
  2/ skepticism of that^ hypothesis?

I suspect .1. (dominates the discussion in some circles), but best to be sure ...

Yes, I mean 1.

[Blood]

I think if Paul had said "the celestial crucifixion was a stumbling block to Jews" then I think it's closed case in favor of the Carrier/Doherty hypothesis. But the fact that Paul never specifically describes the crucifixion as having happened in a celestial realm leaves Carrier's argument a bit thin IMO. If someone said to you "the boy's parents couldn't believe that he was suspended from school because he was always well behaved at home", that natural reading is that this event happened on Earth. But hey, if one wants to get technical, one could always appeal to the "possibility" that the suspension happened in The Sims.

It's not that a big of a stretch, really. Read Revelation, a pregnant woman has a child in outer space that's pursued by a dragon. The author of Hebrews sometimes seems to say that the crucifixion happened in outer space.

[DCHindley]

Just the other day, during my daily séance, Jesus Christ himself materialized as ectoplasm.

After a brief but thoroughly deep theological discussion (something about the number of angels that can dance on the head of a pin), we ended up going out, with our wives Cathy and Mary, for a nice steak dinner at the local Longhorn Restaurant. So, in a way, Christ was staked.

Now just a moment ago someone sent me a tweet and questioned, in 150 characters of less, the reality of my conversation (much less the steak dinner) with an ectoplasmic apparition of Jesus Christ, having heard about it through a rumor mill generated by a few offhand comments I made about it to friends and enemies.

I affirmed quite strenuously the reality (OK, I had actually said "truth") of my conversation and dinner, and referred her to the stenographer's transcription on Facebook, and added "as it (is) written."

DCH

[Charles Wilson]

Jews wouldn't have expected their God or messiah to have been hanged. That's a huge hurdle to overcome. In fact I think its impossible to overcome because there is nothing in the Jewish writings. And I know all the early references. It's impossible to reconcile these ideas.

I realize that I'm late to the Cotillion but SH still makes a point.

Acts 7: 58 (RSV):

[58] Then they cast him out of the city and stoned him; and the witnesses laid down their garments at the feet of a young man named Saul.

Compare this with Tacitus, Histories, Book 4:

"The murder of Calpurnius Galerianus caused the utmost consternation. He was a son of Caius Piso, and had done nothing, but a noble name and his own youthful beauty made him the theme of common talk; and while the country was still unquiet and delighted in novel topics, there were persons who associated him with idle rumours of Imperial honours. By order of Mucianus he was surrounded with a guard of soldiers. Lest his execution in the capital should excite too much notice, they conducted him to the fortieth milestone from Rome on the Appian Road, and there put him to death by opening his veins..."

The method of death in Acts is by stoning. It's the Jewish Way. Stephen is cast out of the city and stoned. Calpurnius Galerianus is also taken out of the city. His veins are opened.
The fact that these 2 descriptions are about the same person illustrates that in at least one instance, a rewrite occurred to make a chosen story into a a passage about the retrograde Jews and their murderous ways. In a manner that was of the Jews and by the Jews.

CW

Edit: Calpurnius Galerianus is the second of 2 characters that make up "Stephen Martyr". CG makes his appearance after the venomous 7th Chapter of Acts. He is identified as having the "Face of an Angel".

[MattMorales]

I like this post.

It nicely lays out some of the different streams of evidence that the passion story is a narrative construct that is not based on an historical event, but based on the psychological needs and desires of a Jewish/Post-Jewish community.

Of the New Testament, it is only the passion story, minus the dubious resurrection tale, that reads as if it might have been based on an historical event. However, "might be" does not mean it was, and it is quite conceivable, as the evidence presented here suggests, that it was not.


Warmly,

Jay Raskin

The cut-and-paste nature of the passion stories in the NT Gospels has been widely characterized, and the dependence on the Jewish scriptures is there for all to see. This situation presents at least two options ---

The apologetic explanation that a first-century CE human Jesus came to fulfill the scriptures requires faith --- that is, belief in the supernatural such that the prophets and other authors of the Hebrew scriptures were inspired by a divine being so they could foretell the future.

The other option does not require the supernatural. The earliest believers in the Christ, employing allegorical midrash, found previously hidden meanings in the scriptures leading them to believe that their Christ had suffered, died, and was resurrected sometime in the distant past (or in a heavenly realm). The later writers of the NT Gospels used the scriptures to construct their elaborate tales, including the passion.

Paul’s Christ was “staked”. He also described the event as “hanging on a tree/ beam of wood/ wood stocks”, Greek xylou (ξύλου),

“Christ redeemed us from the curse of the law, having become a curse for us. For it has been written --- cursed (is) everyone hanging on a tree [or beam or stocks]; that the blessing of Abraham might come on the Gentiles in Jesus Christ; that we might receive the promise of the spirit through faith.” (Galatians 3:13-14).

Paul tells the reader that “it has been written” about this hanging, clearly a reference to the Jewish scriptures (Galatians 3:10). The scriptural source of Paul’s reference here may have been an allegorical interpretation of Deuteronomy 21:22-23. Other options have been suggested.

Certainly it would have been difficult for Paul, using a pile of scrolls, to show the Galatians and his other congregations the many widely scattered passages in the Jewish scriptures that demonstrated the events of his Christ. In a passage that may reveal some useful information in the mostly fictional Acts, it took Paul 3 days to provide a demonstration of his Christ from the Jewish scriptures. (Acts 17:1-3).

The difficulty of such a method of transmission could certainly have limited the early spread of belief in the Christ, and could have been an impetus for Mark to write his tale --- to make the Christ more accessible to all.

It was Mark that came up with the concept of a Roman execution. As Burton Mack describes,

"Mark took the basic ideas from the Christ myth but dared to imagine how the crucifixion and resurrection of the Christ might look if played out as a historical event in Jerusalem …" (Mack, 1995, p. 152).

Perhaps there are non-extant Greek translations of Hebrew scriptures that were used by some early believers in the Christ and some NT authors. Most NT writers apparently used the Septuagint, but some NT references better reflect the extant Masoretic text. One example is the use of Zechariah 12:10,

"And I will pour out on the house of David and the inhabitants of Jerusalem a spirit of grace and supplication. They will look on me, the one they have pierced, and they will mourn for him as one mourns for an only child, and grieve bitterly for him as one grieves for a firstborn son." (Zechariah 12:10 --- NIV).

The author of the Gospel of John clearly applies this reference in Zechariah to Jesus,

"And again another scripture says, they will look on him whom they pierced." (John 19:37).

Justin Martyr interpreted Zechariah 12:10 in a similar fashion from his second-century Christian perspective, (First Apology, 52).

Earl Doherty characterizes the situation,

“Scripture did not contain any full-blown crucified Messiah, but it did contain all the required ingredients. Jewish midrash was the process by which the Christian recipe was put together and baked into the doctrine ….” (Doherty, 2009, p. 87).

Philo of Alexandria (ca. 20 BCE to 50 CE), in his On the Contemplative Life, described a community of Jewish sectarians called the Therapeutae. They had separate rooms in their dwellings used only for study of the Jewish scriptures. The Therapeutae spent many hours of the day searching the scriptures for, as Philo put it, "… literal expressions as symbols revealing secret and hidden meanings …"

I’m not suggesting that the earliest believers in the Christ were Philo’s Therapeutae. But Philo’s report clearly demonstrates that Jewish sectarians of the period were actively searching for new meanings in their sacred scrolls --- new meanings to give them hope in troubled times.

robert j.

Doherty, Earl, Jesus Neither God Nor Man, Age of Reason Publications, Ottawa. 2009
Mack, B.L., Who Wrote the New Testament, HarperCollins, New York. 1995.

I am at a loss here as to why the only two options are that Christ truly fulfilled prophecy or that he did not exist as a human being. I do think it is clear that early Christians practiced scriptural exegesis and midrash to both find "prophecies" and fill in the gaps in his life story (practically the whole thing minus a few basics). The vastness of the Hebrew holy texts combined with the liberal interpretation of the passages practically guarantees that they could have written any story they wanted, though. We might have some examples of catastrophic messianism prior to the birth of Christianity, but I still find it highly unlikely that anyone who knew Jewish scripture that well would have chosen for their savior to die on a cross, instantly alienating potential Jewish converts. Paul's explanation, to me, comes off as more of a desperate rationalization for an event he acknowledges is hard for his fellow Jews to swallow. Better Jesus to have been stoned or thrown off a cliff than hung on a tree and cursed by Yahweh.

Similarly, this is why I do not buy Carrier's argument that somehow Christianity is proof that someone could have concocted a celestial crucified messiah out of sheer imagination. Sure, they could, but why would they? The difference between the two scenarios is plain to see: in one you have people that placed their hopes in this fellow while he was still alive and wound up immensely disappointed. They then go back to their scriptures and say, "Oh, you see, this was actually supposed to happen..." The other scenario entails somebody opting for the method of execution least likely to convert their fellow Jews, even granting prior examples of catastrophic messianism (which, it should be noted, are all seemingly based on real people who got killed).

[MrMacSon]

I am at a loss here as to why the only two options are that Christ truly fulfilled prophecy or that he did not exist as a human being .. etc ...

I don't think they are the only two options or, at least, they should not be the only two options.

The NT is an anthology of texts with many, if not all, likely started in scriptoria; and probably further edited, or collated-&-redacted, later in other scriptoria (or both),

It seems likely the Pauline texts had different origins to the Canonical Gospels (as some Dutch Radicals concluded).

The NT is an anthology of overlapping texts -

• * the 3 synoptic gospels overlap
  * Acts is highly likely to be a 2nd C text based on the Pauline texts.

The origins of each of the the General Epistles (James; the 3 Peter epistles; the 3 John epistles, the Epistle of Jude) and the Book of Revelations is unclear.
The John epistles and Revelations are attributed, by some scholars, to the author/s of the canonical Gospel of John, but those relationships are not concrete.

The NT as a whole, and likely groups of texts, appear to be the result of 'cumulative elaboration'. It's quite possible the different text groupings were about disparate entities and finally redacted to be about consistent main characters.

A lot could be retrospective, too.