Slavonic Josephus, Eusebius and the TF

[maryhelena]

Slavonic Josephus, Eusebius and the TF.

Below is an updated version of a chart I posted on FRDB some time ago.

The chart sets out to demonstrate that the problem for Eusebius was the Acts of Pilate crucifixion story; a story dated to the 7th year of Tiberius. A story that finds support in Slavonic Josephus dating. Eusebius could not move the TF from it’s position in Antiquities - but he could Christianize it and by so doing tied it to gLuke's Emmaus Narrative and its dating of the 15th year of Tiberius. The consequence is that, today, without being prepared to consider the Slavonic Josephus wonder-doer story, the TF remains a major contention between the Jesus historicists and the ahistoricists.

Who wrote the original wonder-doer story? That is an open question. I don’t think it’s a given that Josephus wrote it. However, the fact that it is in Antiquities would indicate that it is there by virtue of his choosing.

The gospel story is long in the tooth. It underwent development and adjustment. All of which indicates that its central figure, Jesus, is not a historical figure. Jesus is a composite literary figure utilized by the gospel writers to tell not only their theological/philosophical outlook but also the political situation that gave birth to their story.

Slavonic Josephus: wonder-doer crucified under Pilate. (birth narrative prior to the 15th year of Herod 1)	Acts of Pilate = 7th year of Tiberius Crucifixion story - 19 or 21 c.e. Eusebius: The History of the Church.	Antiquities: 93/94 c.e. TF placed prior to expulsion of Jews from Rome = 19 c.e. Note: placed after its position in Slavonic Josephus where the wonder-doer story is placed between the issue of the 'semaia' and the issue of the water pipes. Pilate in Judea prior to 19 c.e. Note also the wonder-doer story is now shortened and the zealot linkage missing..	gLuke: Birth narrative moved to 6 c.e. Crucifixion under Pilate - after 15th year of Tiberius. gLuke updates the Slavonic Josephus wonder-worker story via the Emmaus Narrative - and simulatneously negating its relevance for the Acts of Pilate timeline.	Eusebius: 260/265 – 339/340 c.e. Dealing with the Acts of Pilate problem in his day: Using gLuke, Eusebius ties the Emmaus Narrative of gLuke to the wise man story of the TF. Thereby attempting to discredit the Josephan TF as a support for the Acts of Pilate dating of the crucifixion story.	Antiquities TF: Eusebius Interpolated Jesus, Christ, Greeks and Christians into the Josephan wise man text; plus the third day from gLuke.
At that time also a man came forward,—if even it is fitting to call him a man [simply]. His nature as well as his form were a man's; but his showing forth was more than [that] of a man.	Accordingly the forgery of those who have recently given currency to acts against our Saviour is clearly proved. For the very date given in them shows the falsehood of their fabricators.	Now there was about this time a wise man, if it be lawful to call him a man;	The Emmaus Narrative: “About Jesus of Nazareth,” they replied. “He was a prophet".	Now there was about this time Jesus, a wise man, if it be lawful to call him a man;	And there lived at that time Jesus, a wise man, if indeed it be proper to call him a man.
His works, that is to say, were godly, and he wrought wonder-deeds amazing and full of power. Therefore it is not possible for me to call him a man [simply]. But again, looking at the existence he shared with all, I would also not call him an angel...And many from the folk followed him and received his teachings..	For the things which they have dared to say concerning the passion of the Saviour are put into the fourth consulship of Tiberius, which occurred in the seventh year of his reign; at which time it is plain that Pilate was not yet ruling in Judea, if the testimony of Josephus is to be believed, who clearly shows in the above-mentioned work that Pilate was made procurator of Judea by Tiberius in the twelfth year of his reign.	for he was a doer of wonderful works, a teacher of such men as receive the truth with pleasure. .....	powerful in word and deed before God and all the people	For he was a doer of wonderful works, and a teacher of such men as receive the truth in gladness.... And he attached to himself many of the Jews, and many also of the Greeks. He was the Christ	for he was a doer of wonderful works, a teacher of such men as receive the truth with pleasure. .......He drew over to him both many of the Jews and many of the Gentiles. He was [the] Christ.
The teachers of the Law were [therefore] envenomed with envy and gave thirty talents to Pilate, in order that he should put him to death. And he, after he had taken [the money], gave them consent that they should themselves carry out their purpose. And they took him and crucified him according to the ancestral law.		And when Pilate, at the suggestion of the principal men amongst us, had condemned him to the cross...	The chief priests and our rulers handed him over to be sentenced to death, and they crucified him;	When Pilate, on the accusation of our principal men, condemned him to the cross.... Moreover, the race of Christians, named after him, continues down to the present day.	And when Pilate, at the suggestion of the principal men amongst us, had condemned him to the cross.... And the tribe of Christians, so named from him, are not extinct at this day.
But when they saw his power, that he accomplished everything that he would by word, they urged him that he should enter the city and cut down the Roman soldiers and Pilate and rule over us			but we had hoped that he was the one who was going to redeem Israel.
Again Claudius sent his authorities to those states—Cuspius Fadus and Tiberius Alexander......many had been discovered as servants of the previously described wonder-doer; and as they spake to the people about their teacher —that he is living, although he is dead, and that he will free you from your servitude,—many from the folk gave ear to the above-named and took upon themselves their precept...		....those who had loved him previously did not cease to do so.	And what is more, it is the third day since all this took place.... They asked each other, “Were not our hearts burning within us while he talked with us on the road and opened the Scriptures to us?” They got up and returned at once to Jerusalem. There they found the Eleven and those with them, assembled together and saying, “It is true! The Lord has risen.	..those who had loved him in the beginning did not cease loving him....For he appeared unto them again alive on the third day, the divine prophets having told these and countless other wonderful things concerning him.	..those that loved him at the first did not forsake him;.... for he appeared to them alive again the third day;as the divine prophets had foretold these and ten thousand other wonderful things concerning him.

[maryhelena]

Reposting from another thread:

Below is a long quote from Slavonic Josephus. While this does show that the Jesus figure did not want to engage in zealot activity........his followers did hope for that. The Jewish leaders taking fright at the possibility of rebellion against Rome, and it's consequences, and reporting this to Pilate....Note the followers of Jesus in the gospel of Luke: "But we had hoped that he was the one to redeem Israel".

Of interest is where the wonder-doer story is placed in Slavonic Josephus - right in the middle of the two disturbances that involved Pilate.

Slavonic Josephus

And then
a governor was sent by Tiberius to Judaea.
who brought into Jerusalem secretly by night
the image of Caesar
called 'semaia'.
And he set it up In the city.
And when morning came, the Jews seeing it.
created a great tumult
being horrified
at the sight of their Law
being [thus] trampled on.
For it does not allow any image
in the city.

And the people from round about
all came running in haste,
when they heard what had happened.
And they hastened to Caesarea
imploring Pilate
to remove the semaia from Jerusalem.
And he allowed them to maintain
their ancestral customs.
When Pilate rebuffed their pleas.
they fell prostrate
and endured 5 days and 5 nights
motionless.
And then
Pilate mounted the throne
in the great hippodrome
and summoned the people.
as if wishing to give answer to them and
he ordered
his troops, with their weapons,
suddenly to surround the Jews.
And they.
seeing the unexpected sight,
three regiments surrounding them,
trembled greatly.

and Pilate threatened them and said.
"•Having cut you all down,
if you do not accept the image of Caesar."
And he ordered his men
to draw their swords.
Wisely the Jews |

fell [to the ground).
And stretching out their necks,
they cried,
•••We are ready like sheep for slaughter,*
rather than transgress the Law."
Pilate was amazed
at their fear of God and their purity.
And he ordered the semaia
to be removed from Jerusalem.
At that time there appeared a man, |
if it is proper to call him a man,
whose nature and form were human
but whose appearance was more than human
and whose deeds were divine.
And he worked wonderful and powerful miracles.
Therefore it is impossible for me
to call him a man.
Then again, in view of his common nature,
they shall not call him an angel (either).
And everything, whatever he did, he did by |
some unseen power, by word and command.
Some said of him.
"Our first lawgiver has risen from the dead and
has been demonstrating many cures and skills."
Others thought that he was sent from God.
But he was in much opposed to the Law and
did not observe the Sabbath according to
the ancestral custom yet did nothing
dirty. unclean. nor with use of hands
but worked everything by word only
And many of the people followed
and listened to his teachings.
And many souls were aroused.
thinking that by him the Jewish tribes would
free themselves from the hands of the Romans.
But it was his habit rather to remain in front
of the city on the Mount of Olives:
and there he also (freely) gave cures to people.
And there 150 servants
and a multitude of people joined him.
seeing his power (and)
how by word he did everything he wished.
They bade him enter the city,
kill the Roman troops and Pilate
and reign over these.
But he did not care [to do so).
Later, when news of this came |
to the Jewish leaders.
they assembled to the chief priests and said,
•'We are powerless and (too) weak
to oppose the Romans, like a "slackened bow.
Let us go inform Pilate what we have heard:
and we shall be free of anxiety:
if at some time he shall hear [of this] from others,
we shall be deprived of [our] property,
ourselves slaughtered and (our) children exiled."
And they went and informed Pilate.
And he sent and killed many of the people
and brought in that wonder-worker.
"After inquiring about him Pilate understood
that he was a doer of good, not of evil,
(and] not a rebel nor one desirous of kingship :
and he released him.
For he had cured his wife who was dying.
And he went to the usual -places- and |
performed his usual deeds.
And [once] again,
as more people gathered around him.
he became renowned for his works
more than all (others).
Again the lawyers were struck with envy
against him.
And they gave 30 talents to Pilate
that they should kill him.
And he took (it) and gave them liberty
to carry out their wishes themselves.
And they sought out a suitable time to kill him."
For they had given Pilate 30 talents earlier,
that he should give Jesus up to them"
•And they crucified him
against [the] ancestral law;
and they greatly reviled him.
And then
the Jews raised a second disturbance.
For Pilate had taken
the holy treasure called the Corban [and]
spent it on the building of water pipes,
wishing to bring Jordan (water)
from 400 stades (away).

And when the people
were shouting [out] against him
he sent
[his men)

and beat them with cudgels

And 3000 were trampled
as they ran (away)

and the rest fell silent.

footnote:
$ 174e-' further in Vil and A an addition: If Josephus the Jew called him wonder-worker and the works be performed divine and super-human, we. orthodox and Christian people, firmly informed by the holy prophets and the divine apostles and the most worthy historians, call him Jesus Christ, our true Lord, just as the great and God-speaking evangelists say, eye-witnesses of the true word, which truly was. Further. Luke 23:1-I5.

Josephus' Jewish War and Its Slavonic Version: A Synoptic Comparison
H. Leeming (Editor), K. Leeming (Editor)

Interesting - looks like the Slavonic translators added the 'Jesus' name to the wonder-doer story. gLuke already having done so in the Emmanus narrative.

Regarding the Emmanus narrative and the TF:

http://www.josephus.org/GoldbergJosephusLuke1995.pdf

[John T]

"The gospel story is long in the tooth. It underwent development and adjustment. All of which indicates that its central figure, Jesus, is not a historical figure. Jesus is a composite literary figure utilized by the gospel writers to tell not only their theological/philosophical outlook but also the political situation that gave birth to their story."...maryhelena

Julius Caesar's "Gallic Wars" is also long in the tooth. It contains impossible stories including the sighting of unicorns in the Hercynian Forest of Germany. Therefore, Caesar is a composite literary figure utilized by the Roman Senate to tell not only their theological/philosophical outlook but also the political situation that gave birth to their story that Caesar is Divus Julius.

Therefore, Caesar is a myth.

This game of make believe that everyone in religious history is also make believe is just that, make believe.

John T

[maryhelena]

"The gospel story is long in the tooth. It underwent development and adjustment. All of which indicates that its central figure, Jesus, is not a historical figure. Jesus is a composite literary figure utilized by the gospel writers to tell not only their theological/philosophical outlook but also the political situation that gave birth to their story."...maryhelena

Julius Caesar's "Gallic Wars" is also long in the tooth. It contains impossible stories including the sighting of unicorns in the Hercynian Forest of Germany. Therefore, Caesar is a composite literary figure utilized by the Roman Senate to tell not only their theological/philosophical outlook but also the political situation that gave birth to their story that Caesar is Divus Julius.

Therefore, Caesar is a myth.

This game of make believe that everyone in religious history is also make believe is just that, make believe.

John T

My interest is the gospel Jesus story not stories about Caesar.....if you want to discuss Caesar why not set up your own thread??

[steve43]

"Render unto Caesar the thread that is Caesar's."

[maryhelena]

"Render unto Caesar the thread that is Caesar's."

OK - off you go to play in Caesar's sandpit.....