Biblical Criticism & History Forum - earlywritings.com

Duvduv wrote:Robert Price's writing is less dense than that of Ibn Warraq, but the points always stand as clear as day:

1) Mecca was not an important trade town at the time Muhammad allegedly existed.

What is your conclusion ?

2) There is no record of the life of Muhammad until about 200 years years after he allegedly died, in the writings attributed to Ibn Ishaq found in the writings of Al Tabari later on.

What is your conclusion ?

3) It is reasonable to suppose that the Quran was assembled as a text for a doctrine to unite Arab sects AFTER the emergence of the Abbasid caliphate in Baghdad and not before that.

1. The Qur'an was not finalised until well after Mohamed's death
2. Much was lost at Yamama
3. Variant Qur'ans existed in the early days
4. The variants were different to modern Qur'ans
5. Abu Bakr collected his version from scraps and memories
6. Abu Bakr's version faded early from importance
7. Uthmann chose Abu Bakr's version for political expediency
8. Uthmann et al. made changes to the new version
9. Muslims criticised Uthmann for destroying the Qur'an
10. Muslims criticised the new version as missing passages
11. Later changes were made to the Qur'an
12. Variant readings of the Qur'an exist to this day

Huon wrote:I suppose that you are speaking of Ibn Warrak's "The Quest for the Historical Muhammad", and possibly Patricia Crone's "Meccan Trade and the Rise of Islam".
Please give us some exact quotes.

1. The Qur'an was not finalised until well after Mohamed's death.
The Qur'an was not collected in writing in Mohamed's time :

Anas bin Malik (c.612-709 or 712) was a well-known sahabi (companion) of the prophet Muhammad.
He was an Ansar of the Banu Khazraj.

Bukhari Book 6 Volume 61. The Book of Exegesis of the Qur'an
Hadeeth No 526. Narrated Anas bin Malik:

When the Prophet died, none had collected the Qur'an but four persons: Abu Ad-Darda'. Mu'adh bin Jabal, Zaid bin Thabit and Abu Zaid. We were the inheritor (of Abu Zaid) as he had no offspring.

Abu Bakr as-Siddiq (first Caliph) sent for me when the people of Yamama had been killed. Then Abu Bakr said : "... you should search for the Qur'an and collect it ". By Allah! ... Then I said to Abu Bakr, "How will you do something which Allah's Apostle did not do?"... (Sahih al-Bukhari, Vol. 6, p.477).

A great part of the Qur'an was only recited shortly before Mohamed's death :

Narrated Anas bin Malik: Allah sent down his Divine Inspiration to His Apostle (saw) continuously and abundantly during the period preceding his death till He took him unto Him. That was the period of the greatest part of revelation, and Allah's Apostle (saw) died after that. (Sahih al-Bukhari, Vol. 6, p.474).

This shows that the Qur'an was not collected or written down, or finalised before Mohamed's death - the Qur'an only formed years after Mohamed.

Apologetics is not a substitute for an analysis of the content and context of the Quran, hadiths or history.
For example, as I have said, there is reason to suspect that Shiism did not originate in the early days of Islam at all, and was a syncretic sect that adopted developing ideas of Islam onto a pre-existing belief system upon the advent of the Safavid Persian regime that focused on worship of someone named Ali, who of course is not mentioned anywhere in the Quran at all.

DuvDuv, what is your opinion about the existence of Ali, who was the cousin of Muhammad, and married Fatima, a daughter of the same Muhammad ?

There is nothing in the Quran about Ali. I have often asked myself why sects such as Alawites, Shia and Druze venerate or worship this Ali figure. It dawned on me that these sects existed PRIOR to the emergence of mainstream Islam and grafted on to it (as in Shiism) or adopted elements of it (i.e. Alawites). After all, why would a sect venerate someone who neither revealed the Quran nor was the Messenger of Allah?! It could even be argued that Ali-ism was brought under the Islamic wing as an attempt to unify various sects under the Abbasid Baghdad caliphate. The model is applicable in this case and in the emergence of the Constantinian regime during which it is very likely that Christianity was created in the 4th century.

Duvduv wrote:Robert Price's writing is less dense than that of Ibn Warraq, but the points always stand as clear as day:
1) Mecca was not an important trade town at the time Muhammad allegedly existed.
2) There is no record of the life of Muhammad until about 200 years years after he allegedly died, in the writings attributed to Ibn Ishaq found in the writings of Al Tabari later on.
3) It is reasonable to suppose that the Quran was assembled as a text for a doctrine to unite Arab sects AFTER the emergence of the Abbasid caliphate in Baghdad and not before that.

There have been a number of writers making these three claims, or at least presenting them as possibilities, such as Tom Holland's "In the Shadow of the Sword". One of the over-riding claims associated with these three is that, after the successful military conquests there remained a very large geographical area that needed to be maintained under the control of those who succeeded the military elite, and that the imposition of a centralised monotheistic state religion over the entire area was indeed a proven methodology (given the success of Constantine's monotheistic state in the 4th and 5th centuries).

The method used was the same: Forced conversion to the strict adherence to a "canonised holy writ".

Duvduv wrote:2) There is no record of the life of Muhammad until about 200 years years after he allegedly died, in the writings attributed to Ibn Ishaq found in the writings of Al Tabari later on.

There are numerous early references to Islam in non-Islamic sources. Many have been collected in historiographer Robert G. Hoyland's compilation Seeing Islam As Others Saw It.

For instance :
· 634 Doctrina Iacobi
· 636 Fragment on the Arab Conquests
· 639 Sophronius, Patriarch of Jerusalem
· 640 Thomas the Presbyter
· 640 Homily on the Child Saints of Babylon
· 642 PERF 558
· 644 Coptic Apocalypse of Pseudo-Shenute
· 648 Life of Gabriel of Qartmin
· 650 Fredegar

Peter Kirby wrote:

DuvDuv wrote:1) Why is there no biography among the Arabs at all of Muhammad for some 200 years after he allegedly died?

Because Muhammad never existed:

http://www.inarah.de
http://www.islamfacts.info

The name of the author of "Good Bye Mohammed" is Norbert G. Pressburg.
This name is a pseudonym.

The question is WHAT exactly each of these sources claims to say and why any such claims are absent from Islamic documentation of the same period. Are these referring to Mehmet, Ahmed (as in the Quran) or who else, when and where? Each has to be examined individually.

Huon wrote:

Duvduv wrote:2) There is no record of the life of Muhammad until about 200 years years after he allegedly died, in the writings attributed to Ibn Ishaq found in the writings of Al Tabari later on.

There are numerous early references to Islam in non-Islamic sources. Many have been collected in historiographer Robert G. Hoyland's compilation Seeing Islam As Others Saw It.

For instance :
· 634 Doctrina Iacobi
· 636 Fragment on the Arab Conquests
· 639 Sophronius, Patriarch of Jerusalem
· 640 Thomas the Presbyter
· 640 Homily on the Child Saints of Babylon
· 642 PERF 558
· 644 Coptic Apocalypse of Pseudo-Shenute
· 648 Life of Gabriel of Qartmin
· 650 Fredegar