Who wrote the Dead Sea Scrolls?

Discussion about the Hebrew Bible, Septuagint, pseudepigrapha, Philo, Josephus, Talmud, Dead Sea Scrolls, archaeology, etc.
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Sheshbazzar
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Re: Who wrote the Dead Sea Scrolls?

Post by Sheshbazzar »

John T wrote:@Sheshazzar,

You have been duly noted for your vain attempt to use the rules of Spin's, spin.
So, you can understand why I reserve the right to not respond to your latest smart-alleck response.

Now, are there those in the shadows with serious inquiries or will this thread contain nothing but supporters of Spin's spin?

Respectfully,

John T
In other words, you are admitting to all present that it is impossible for you to present us with any valid reasons why the DSS could not have been associated with or collected by any Jewish sect other than the Essenes.
Your abject failure to coherently defend your position is duly noted.
ficino
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Re: Who wrote the Dead Sea Scrolls?

Post by ficino »

John T wrote:Have you actually took the time to read The Community Rules?
I have taken the time to read them.

Without wasting time to cite the DSS, the Essenes had a trial period for initiates of at least 2 years. They were examined for their sincerity/motive to join and from the onset they were told what the process would be before they were considered a full member (Josephus did not pass the initiation test). Their personal property was held/set aside and would be returned if they voluntarily left or were kicked out for repeated violation of the rules.

No doubt, pious Jews (including Temple Priests) wanting to join the community would bring their personal belongings (including writings) showing their sincerity in their search for true scripture/prophecy. Now, what would you do/place such things until they passed the final exam?
Could be that the DSS are the remains of books brought by postulants and the like; can't see how that supposition can be falsified. It's not readily compatible with a hypothesis that a significant bulk of the scrolls were produced in a scriptorium at Qumran. Put the two together and the effects become overdetermined, from what I can see.

Do you get it now?

Respectfully,
John T
I get some things and not others.
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John T
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Re: Who wrote the Dead Sea Scrolls?

Post by John T »

@ficino,

You still haven't answered the question. So, let me put it another way.

Imagine you are the guardian/gate keeper of the community and your job is to keep the sons of darkness from infiltrating the camp. How would you proceed?

Simply presenting oneself at the gate, claiming to be born of royal blood and the priesthood, like Josephus claimed, is no guarantee of which side God put you on before the foundation of the world.

How would you separate the seeker's "personal articles" from contaminating the whole community until you knew for sure if they were really "clean" and of the elect?

Do you get it know?
Please don't submit another post that you still don't quite get it.

Respectfully,
John T
"It is useless to attempt to reason a man out of a thing he was never reasoned into."...Jonathan Swift
ficino
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Re: Who wrote the Dead Sea Scrolls?

Post by ficino »

I've got it! I'd tell lower level members of the community to separate the scrolls from the seekers' other personal effects and deposit the scrolls in caves near Qumran!

John, I can't contribute any more to this. All I've done is to propose what seem to be problems for the "scrolls produced at Qumran" hypothesis. If we're now debating a hypothesis that the scrolls were brought in by postulants, or however we name these "seekers," then I cannot comment further.
Adam
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Re: Who wrote the Dead Sea Scrolls?

Post by Adam »

From the OP:
John T wrote:Who wrote the Dead Sea Scrolls?....
Since 2010, has there been any new plausible theories and/or have any of the old ones been debunked?
I agree with this statement in the article: "Many modern archaeologists such as Cargill believe the Essenes authored some, but not all, of the Dead Sea Scrolls."
John T
Eisenman himself has shown some movement on the issue. From another website referring to and also quoting from Robert Eisenman's James the Brother of Jesus and the Dead Sea Scrolls I , the short 2012 version of the 90's tome:
Let me put it this way, a qualified yes. The main point is that some of the texts are not pre-James and many of the rest are basically paleographic and contextual arguments. I could transcribe the 3 pages of small type here, but I'm not going to. Ref; pp. 31-33 for that point.

Here is a salient sentence at the heart of the matter. "So, initially, it is certainly permissible to say that the ideas in the Scrolls flow in a fairly consistent manner into the ideas associated with the Community led by James, regardless of the dating of the Qumran texts."
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 297#670297 at Post #10. (I'm "Korah" over there.)
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John T
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Re: Who wrote the Dead Sea Scrolls?

Post by John T »

@ficino,

I read your article by Glob.
http://fathom.lib.uchicago.edu/1/777777190227/

Glob did not address the most likely reason for so many scraps/fragments of writings by different scribes was due to new recruits having to leave behind/store their personal affects/writings inside caves before starting their 2 year initiation period. So, it is no wonder Glob remained perplexed by the numbers of personal containers/phylacteries used to hold writings that were found inside the caves just outside of the camp.

He also made this comment out of ignorance: "The Jews, for their part, deeply feared that the Romans intended to destroy the Temple, the physical embodiment of the Jewish ideals. They hoped that by saving their collections of scrolls and thereby the words that expressed their beliefs and aspirations of centuries--by literally hiding those words, that is, until the terror had passed--the time would yet come when the message of the Jews and of Judaism to the nations of the world might be heard again."...Glob

Jews, yes. However, I know of no such fear by the Essene and the opposite is supported by the War Scrolls.

The War Scroll, tells of supernatural soldiers (sons of righteousness) with the help of angels, who would fight the genitals in a holy war for 40? years. Lastly they would defeat the Kittim (Romans). I know of no mention by the Essenes that they had any fear the temple would be destroyed by the Romans.
Do you?

To hide scrolls out of fear of the Romans would be an act of, well, lack of faith.

"Valiant [warriors] of angelic host are among our numbered men, and the Hero of war is with our congregation; the host of His spirits is with our foot-soldiers and horsemen. [They are as] clouds, as clouds of dew (covering) the earth, as a shower of rain shedding judgement on all that grows on the earth....The War Scroll, XI, 5.

Geza Vermes briefly explains in his introduction (pg20) "The Complete Dead Sea Scrolls In English" how Norman Golb's theory, i.e. the Jerusalem theory, a.k.a. Spin's "Willy-Nilly" theory has been debunked by Emanuel Tov and others.

Sometimes when you wear blinders you get tunnel vision and it is hard to see things all around you. However, when you refuse to take them off out of arrogance you should not be surprised that others laugh at your stumbling and groping for things that are not there.

Respectfully,
John T
"It is useless to attempt to reason a man out of a thing he was never reasoned into."...Jonathan Swift
ficino
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Re: Who wrote the Dead Sea Scrolls?

Post by ficino »

John, thank you for calling attention to Vermes' book. I'm sure it's quite familiar to many on this board but is new to me. Conveniently, there's a pdf, though I don't know whether it's of the most recent edition:

http://www.thechristianidentityforum.ne ... crolls.pdf

Vermes makes a good point against Golb that the texts contained in the whole collection, as known so far, seem to reflect the interests of sectarians. To maintain that the scrolls are from a sectarian library in Jerusalem and were spirited out before the city finally succumbed to the Roman assault seems unnecessary. If one agrees that the collection is sectarian, the motivation for positing a Jerusalem provenance seems weak, unless there is strong reason to deny that there was a sectarian settlement near Qumran. Vermes is convinced that Qumran was not a fortress. I don't know what to think about claims that it was just a commercial establishment and not a sectarian community.

I have read a good deal of Vermes' intro but cannot read it all, at least, right now. I note, however, that Vermes follows what I take is the standard view of the motives of those who put the scrolls in jars in caves: "But from that place, members of an ancient Jewish religious community, whose centre it was, hurried out one day and in secrecy climbed the nearby cliffs in order to hide away in eleven caves their precious scrolls. No one came back to retrieve them, and there they remained undisturbed for almost 2,000 years."

This goes against your suggestion, John, that the scrolls were the property of postulants to the community and that they were deposited in jars in caves as a means of separating the property of postulants from community property, at least during the time of their postulancy. [Perhaps I have your suggestion wrong here.] It also goes against your belief, stated above, that hiding scrolls from the Romans would evidence a lack of faith.

Do you have a refutation of Vermes' view of the purpose of depositing the scrolls in jars in caves?

Just speculating right now, it seems to me that the question of motive for depositing can only be addressed from assumptions about whether the DSS represent a unified collection, a library, or were instead possessions of a range of owners. In favor of the former assumption: the sectarian bias reflected in the list of works represented. In favor of the latter: utter diversity among scribal hands, such that (acc. to Golb, anyway) no individual scribe's work seems to be represented by more than one scroll. The latter phenomenon argues against the collection's being the product of a single scriptorium. Since the Qumran settlement, acc. to Vermes' Essene hypothesis, contained only c. 150 people at once, you'd expect to see the same scribe's handiwork in several scrolls if scrolls were copied at Qumran.

You might want to suppose that the Qumran community was Essene, had its library, produced few volumes, acquired many volumes, item by item, when personal books of postulants eventually became community property... but you still have to account for their deposition in jars in caves. Seems overly labor-intensive to me if the purpose was to keep property of people still in the postulant stage separate from community property. Why schlep them all the way up there? Seems likely, on the other hand, if the purpose was to hide the scrolls. I have read that the jars themselves had stuff on top of them - don't know whether the jars were themselves buried inside the caves in c. 70 CE or whether the stuff on top of the jars is later deposit.

Thank you, ficino
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John T
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Re: Who wrote the Dead Sea Scrolls?

Post by John T »

@ficino,

We can verify only so much by C14 of the scrolls.
Most answers as to who wrote the DSS are in the most obvious place, the scrolls themselves. However, for whatever reason people don't take the time to read them closely enough.

That is how James Tabor was able to prove Josephus was right about the Essenes by simply by reading the DSS and Josephus. Tabor noted their latrines were located outside of the camp at a precise distance and direction. By finding the latrines Tabor proved the Essenes ant Quram were the source of the DSS.

Mystery solved.

Respectfully,

John T
Last edited by John T on Fri Jul 25, 2014 4:20 am, edited 1 time in total.
"It is useless to attempt to reason a man out of a thing he was never reasoned into."...Jonathan Swift
ficino
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Re: Who wrote the Dead Sea Scrolls?

Post by ficino »

John T wrote:@ficino,

There only so much you can verify with physical evidence.
Most answers are in the most obvious place, the scrolls themselves. However, for whatever reason people don't take the time to read them.
That is how James Tabor was able to prove Josephus was right about the Essenes. Simply by reading the DSS, Tabor noted their latrines were located outside of the camp at a precise distance and direction. By finding the latrines where the DSS said they would be he made a positive proof of who wrote the DSS. The Essenes ant Quram wrote them.

Mystery solved.

Respectfully,

John T
All of them? [sentence above bolded by me]

And they put them in jars in caves because... ?
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John T
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Re: Who wrote the Dead Sea Scrolls?

Post by John T »

@ficino,

I did a quick edit on the last post and your questions are duly noted.
However, I am running late and won't be able to get to them until later today.

Sincerely,

John T
"It is useless to attempt to reason a man out of a thing he was never reasoned into."...Jonathan Swift
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