How Many Times Do the Patriarchs Tell Lies in the Torah?

[Stephan Huller]

I was explaining to my son this morning that lying is perfectly acceptable under certain circumstances. I happened to use the example of my mother and grandmother lying to Swiss border guards in order to escape being thrown into ovens but I also segued to a familiar interest of mine - the overt acknowledgement that the Patriarchs lied on a number of occasions. The example I used was Abraham telling the Pharaoh that Sarah was his sister. But there are countless others. I would like to establish a list here of all the instances where God approves of lies and lying (in other words, Cain telling God he doesn't know where his brother is doesn't count). How many can we get up to? Let's count Abraham and Isaac lying about their wives as (1) and (2). How many more are there?

[Clive]

I've got 1 Kings 22 but does that count as Torah?

[g_n_o_s_i_s]

Does Gen 2:17 count?

[semiopen]

It's not clear Abraham was lying about Sarah being his sister.

And besides, she is in truth my sister, my father's daughter though not my mother's; and she became my wife. (Gen 20:12 TNK)

Their relationship was incestuous, where the argument is given that it was ok because the Torah wasn't given yet. Jewish exegesis says that the Patriarchs followed all the mitzvot ( mitzvah) except in the cases where they didn't.

By his answer, Abraham also becomes the father of all nerds.

Isaac makes a clear lie about Rivka -

When the men of the place asked him about his wife, he said, "She is my sister," for he was afraid to say "my wife," thinking, "The men of the place might kill me on account of Rebekah, for she is beautiful." (Gen 26:7 TNK)

Regarding it being ok to tell lies in some cases -

The Rebbe allegedly never told his mother that his brother died. He would write her letters in the brother's handwriting and have them posted from the city where his brother had lived.

Regarding incest -

My dog's mother is also his great grandmother.

[ficino]

I'm hijacking the thread to post this from an inspirational coach inveighing about mistakes we make at work:

"But the problem with lying is two-fold, Caprino says. "One: When you tell yourself you're not capable of facing reality or dealing with the consequences, you make yourself right — you'll grow less powerful, capable, bold, respectable, and trustworthy over time," she says. "And two: The lies you tell must be perpetuated, which is exhausting and drains you from vital energy you need to reach your fullest potential."

http://finance.yahoo.com/news/3-things- ... 00665.html

I never found the character Isaac all that great a model of virtue. But I guess that doesn't matter, really.

Cheers, f

[semiopen]

I agree that Isaac is an odd bird, but surely Abraham's activity is also questionable.

Other lies include Jacob tricking Isaac to give him Esau's blessing

Jacob said to his father, "I am Esau, your first-born; I have done as you told me. Pray sit up and eat of my game, that you may give me your innermost blessing." (Gen 27:19 TNK)

Another is Joseph's brothers

Then they took Joseph's tunic, slaughtered a kid, and dipped the tunic in the blood. They had the ornamented tunic taken to their father, and they said, "We found this. Please examine it; is it your son's tunic or not?" (Gen 37:31-32 TNK)

Regarding the Patriarchs, it is not easy to see why they should be emulated. For example, it is difficult to find a single action of Jacob that was praiseworthy.

[Stephan Huller]

Clearly Jacob pretending to be his brother was recognized as a lie at least since the time of Celsus.

[Stephan Huller]

With respect to Abraham's claim that Sarah was 'really' his sister we can I think count that as two lies. As this source notes:

Sarah is first mentioned in Genesis 11:29. Exceptionally, her genealogy is not given. According to Genesis 20:12, Sarah was Abraham's half-sister, the daughter of his father, but not of his mother. It is difficult, however, to reconcile this information with Genesis 11:31, from a different documentary source, where Sarah is identified as Terah's daughter-in-law. http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jso ... 17522.html

I seriously suggest that Genesis 20:12 was added by a later editor to avoid making the father of the Hebrews look like a complete liar.

[Clive]

And I have lost the plot somewhere! Why is a statement in an ancient document evidence of a legitimate answer to an ethical question? All it is is an example of how different people responded to these matters!

I agree lying is justifiable, but I don't need arguments from authority!

[semiopen]

With respect to Abraham's claim that Sarah was 'really' his sister we can I think count that as two lies. As this source notes:

Sarah is first mentioned in Genesis 11:29. Exceptionally, her genealogy is not given. According to Genesis 20:12, Sarah was Abraham's half-sister, the daughter of his father, but not of his mother. It is difficult, however, to reconcile this information with Genesis 11:31, from a different documentary source, where Sarah is identified as Terah's daughter-in-law. http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jso ... 17522.html

I seriously suggest that Genesis 20:12 was added by a later editor to avoid making the father of the Hebrews look like a complete liar.

Abram and Nahor took to themselves wives, the name of Abram's wife being Sarai and that of Nahor's wife Milcah, the daughter of Haran, the father of Milcah and Iscah. (Gen 11:29 TNK)

Rashi says Iscah is Sarai. Most times weird names come up in the Torah, Jewish commentators assign them to the usual suspects, for example -

The king of Egypt spoke to the Hebrew midwives, one of whom was named Shiphrah and the other Puah, (Exo 1:15 TNK)

Where the midwives are said to be Jochebed and Miriam -

Jochebed is identified by some rabbis in the Talmud with Shiphrah, one of the midwives described by the book of Exodus as being ordered by Pharaoh to kill the new-born male children.[5] In making this identification, the rabbis interpret the houses, with which the Book of Exodus describes God as having compensated the midwives,[6] as having been those of priesthood and of royalty; these houses are interpreted by the Talmudic rabbis as allegorical references to Jochebed's sons—Moses and Aaron respectively.[7]

Another example is Keturah

Some, but not all, Jewish philosophers identify Keturah with Hagar, stating that Abraham sought her out after Sarah's death,[6][7][8] and that Hagar's change of name to Keturah (a reference to incense used in worship) was symbolic of the pleasantness of her teshuvah (repentance) from her sinfulness during her exile.[9] This interpretation is set forth in the Midrash[10] and is supported by Rashi,[11] Gur Aryeh, Keli Yakar, and Obadiah of Bertinoro.[citation needed] The contrary view (that Keturah was someone other than Hagar) is advocated by Abraham ibn Ezra,[11] Radak, Rashbam, and Ramban.[citation needed] The Second Temple Book of Jubilees (19:11) makes it clear that Keturah is not Hagar and explains that Hagar died a few years previously.

Since the Rebbe highly recommended studying Torah with Rashi commentary, the Rashi sluts have the definite upper hand in contemporary American religious discussions despite the wiki's suggestion that there is a dispute.

Iscah is odd because the sentence containing her name grammatically seems to point to Sarai. The wiki is amusing in the several sentences that remark on how brief the mention is... yes it occurs only this one time in the bible.

Iscah is also believed to be the source of the name "Jessica"

[wiki]Jessica_(instrumental)[/wiki] is also remarkable because the name only appears in the song title.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_W25lPno3FE

Marge: This song has been going on for hours.
Homer: Yeah, it's like the Allman Brothers.

Anyway, I had the same thought as Stephan about Abraham's nerdy comment being added later. However why is Sarai's lineage so obscure? On further reflection, I'm not sure which came first.