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The dating the Similitudes of Enoch

Discussion about the Hebrew Bible, Septuagint, pseudepigrapha, Philo, Josephus, Talmud, Dead Sea Scrolls, archaeology, etc.

Re: The dating the Similitudes of Enoch

Postby Michael BG » Thu Apr 20, 2017 10:53 am

John T wrote:2. Let's look at Enoch LXII once again : …

If those Enoch verses inspired Herod to go to the springs for healing then it would suggest that the Parables of Enoch were written before his reign.

I think this is most unlikely. Herod could find out about healing springs from other sources of information.

John T wrote:Finally, do you agree the phraseology matches the DSS more than the New Testament?

I have not done any comparisons except for the two standard Matthew ones and those in this thread regarding other NT ones. I am not aware of a coming heavenly figure at the end of time in the DSS. This is most likely because I have not studied the DSS.
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Re: The dating the Similitudes of Enoch

Postby John T » Fri Apr 21, 2017 3:54 am

Michael BG wrote: I am not aware of a coming heavenly figure at the end of time in the DSS. This is most likely because I have not studied the DSS.


A couple of DSS sources that appears to be talking about a heavenly angel: 4Q521 A Messianic Apocalypse. IIQ13 Heavenly Prince Melchizedek.

The prophecies are strikingly similar to Jesus and his account of the Son of Man.
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Re: The dating the Similitudes of Enoch

Postby Michael BG » Fri Apr 28, 2017 9:25 am

John T wrote:A couple of DSS sources that appears to be talking about a heavenly angel: 4Q521 A Messianic Apocalypse. IIQ13 Heavenly Prince Melchizedek.

The prophecies are strikingly similar to Jesus and his account of the Son of Man.

4Q521
[...for the heav]ens and the earth will listen to his anointed one, [and all] that is in them will not turn away from the precepts of the holy ones. Strengthen yourselves, you who are seeking the Lord, in his service! Will you not in this encounter the Lord, all those who hope in their heart? For the Lord will consider the pious and call the righteous by name, and his spirit will hover upon the poor, and he will renew the faithful with his strength. For he will honor the pious upon the throne of an eternal kingdom, freeing prisoners, giving sight to the blind, straightening out the twis[ted.] And for[e]ver shall I cling to [those who] hope, and in his mercy [...] and the fru[it of ...] not be delayed. And the Lord will perform marvellous acts such as have not existed, just as he sa[id, for] he will heal the badly wounded and will make the dead live; he will proclaim good news to the poor and [...] he will lead the [...] and enrich the hungry. [...] and all [....]
http://www.textexcavation.com/qumran4q521.html quoting Florentino García Martínez.
It has been suggested this is similar to Mt 11:5 = Lk 7:22
the blind receive their sight, the lame walk, lepers are cleansed, and the deaf hear, the dead are raised up, the poor have good news preached to them.
RSV Lk 7:22c-g

It seems that there is a parallel between Qumran’s “anointed one” and Jesus. I don’t see a reference to the Son of Man or a heavenly figure here.

IIQ13 refers to Melchizedek. It refers to Ps 7:7-8 where Melchizedek takes his seat in the highest heaven then he delivers all the captives from the power of Belial (an evil heavenly being) [using http://nazarenespace.com/profiles/blogs ... nt-11q13-1].

Again there is no Son of Man figure. The Melchizedek figure has parallels with Jesus, in the sense that both arrive in heaven from an earthly existence and then have a role in heaven.

Please can you point out the parallels you see between the DSS and 1 Enoch 37-72?
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Re: The dating the Similitudes of Enoch

Postby John T » Tue May 02, 2017 4:37 am

Michael BG wrote:
It seems that there is a parallel between Qumran’s “anointed one” and Jesus. I don’t see a reference to the Son of Man or a heavenly figure here.

IIQ13 refers to Melchizedek. It refers to Ps 7:7-8 where Melchizedek takes his seat in the highest heaven then he delivers all the captives from the power of Belial (an evil heavenly being) [using http://nazarenespace.com/profiles/blogs ... nt-11q13-1].

Again there is no Son of Man figure. The Melchizedek figure has parallels with Jesus, in the sense that both arrive in heaven from an earthly existence and then have a role in heaven.

Please can you point out the parallels you see between the DSS and 1 Enoch 37-72?


The Ages of the Creation (4Q180), is a badly worn manuscript from Cave 4. It deals with the fallen angels of I Enoch. Only a small fragment has been interpreted by J.M. Allegro and J.T. Milik. It talks about fallen angels who were lead by Azazel, took earthly wives and gave birth to giants.

The common theme in 1 Enoch 37-72 is: The elect ones are of proper DNA and the unrighteous/wicked are decedents of the fallen angles.

Messianic titles in the DSS and Enoch are interchangeable. Mine elect one = His Anointed = Lord of Spirits = Son of Man. Although Geza Vermes points out that the title Son of Man is "completely lacking at Qumran", I strongly suspect it is among the fragments, yet to be translated.

The Community Rule (1QS) Explains the origin and division of allotted spirits. The elect ones = spirits of truth = sons of light. The wicked ones = spirits of injustice = sons of darkness.

I find the similarities of 1 Enoch (37-72) with DSS far more than a coincidence.
Furthermore, I find the Book of Revelation to be a spin-off from the Parables of Enoch.

If the Parables of Enoch were written before the Book of Revelation, by default it would be before 100 C.E.
If Jesus referenced the Son of Man based on the Parables of Enoch than it supports the theory that 1 Enoch 32-72 was part of the Qumran community and written sometime during the Hasmonean Dynasty between 142 -37 B.C.E.

Enochic Judaism gave rise to the Essenes and the Essenes gave rise to Christianity.

Sincerely,

John T
Last edited by John T on Tue May 02, 2017 10:13 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: The dating the Similitudes of Enoch

Postby Michael BG » Tue May 02, 2017 9:37 am

John T wrote:
Michael BG wrote:I don’t see a reference to the Son of Man or a heavenly figure here.

Please can you point out the parallels you see between the DSS and 1 Enoch 37-72?

The Ages of the Creation (4Q180), is a badly worn manuscript from Cave 4. It deals with the fallen angels of I Enoch. Only a small fragment has been interpreted by J.M. Allegro and J.T. Milik. It talks about fallen angels who where lead by Azazel, took earthly wives and gave birth to giants.

The common theme in 1 Enoch 37-72 is: The elect ones are of proper DNA and the unrighteous/wicked are decedents of the fallen angles.

Messianic titles in the DSS and Enoch are interchangeable. Mine elect one = His Anointed = Lord of Spirits = Son of Man. Although Geza Vermes points out that the title Son of Man is "completely lacking at Qumran", I strongly suspect it is among the fragments, yet to be translated.

The important part of this I think is that there is no evidence that the title Son of Man was used at Qumram.

Fallen angels in the past are not parallel to a coming heavenly figure who ushers in the end of time.

John T wrote:If Jesus referenced the Son of Man based on the Parables of Enoch than it supports the theory that 1 Enoch 32-72 was part of the Qumran community and written sometime during the Hasmonean Dynasty between 142 -37 B.C.E.

It would be interesting to try to present a case that Jesus based his Son of Man sayings on the Parables of Enoch. However even if such a case was persuasive it would not be evidence that 1 Enoch 32-72 was known to the Qumran community; it would be evidence that they were written before the death of Jesus which we assume happened between 26 and 36 CE when Pontius Pilate was governor of Judea.
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Re: The dating the Similitudes of Enoch

Postby John T » Tue May 02, 2017 11:46 am

Michael BG wrote:The important part of this I think is that there is no evidence that the title Son of Man was used at Qumram.

Fallen angels in the past are not parallel to a coming heavenly figure who ushers in the end of time.


1. Of course using the same logic we can also say the Qumran community did not know about the Book of Esther since it was not found among the DSS.

I agree the dating of Similitudes of Enoch (1 Enoch 37-71) is problematic since it has yet to be identified among the DSS fragments. Still, I'm convinced it is among the thousands of puzzle pieces (fragments) just waiting to be assembled by the right person.

One scholar that leans in your line of thinking that Similitudes of Enoch came after the DSS is Geza Vermes who believes the Book of Enoch was not yet an unified text at Qumran. "The Complete Dead Sea Scrolls in English" by Geza Vermes, pg. 513.

2. Actually, the coming heavenly figure, a.k.a. Son of Man, is to administer final judgement at the end of time on the fallen angels who where imprisoned since the great flood of Noah.

Geza Vermes refuses to connect the dots of the mega-theme (angelic armies descending from heaven to battle demonic forces on earth, at the end times) found in the DSS, New Testament, and Similitudes of Enoch, simply because the precise phrase "Son of Man" has not yet also been found among the DSS. :confusedsmiley:

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Re: The dating the Similitudes of Enoch

Postby AnitaEva » Tue May 16, 2017 3:16 pm

Hi Im new to forum, can you confirm Caine and AWAN brother and sister parents Adam and Eve bore a son Enoch,
and Seth and Azura brother and sister parents Adam and Eve have Enoch on their ancestral lines.....was Jared father to this Enoch
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Re: The dating the Similitudes of Enoch

Postby iskander » Wed May 17, 2017 7:28 am

AnitaEva wrote:Hi Im new to forum, can you confirm Caine and AWAN brother and sister parents Adam and Eve bore a son Enoch,
and Seth and Azura brother and sister parents Adam and Eve have Enoch on their ancestral lines.....was Jared father to this Enoch


How would anyone know and how could anyone confirm that?
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Re: The dating the Similitudes of Enoch

Postby semiopen » Wed May 17, 2017 5:39 pm

I tend to stay out of these discussions, mostly because of ignorance.

However I looked up some of AnitaEva's references.

Seth and Azura

The 2nd century BC Book of Jubilees, regarded as noncanonical except in the Alexandrian Rite, also dates his birth to 130 AM.[8] According to it, in 231 AM Seth married his sister, Azura, who was four years younger than he was. In the year 235 AM, Azura gave birth to Enos.[8]


The wiki also contains a chart showing that there were two different Enoch's.

Enoch_(ancestor_of_Noah)

Regarding the two Enochs-
This Enoch is not to be confused with Cain's son Enoch (Genesis 4:17).


Awan_(religious_figure)

According to the Book of Jubilees, Awan (also Avan or Aven, from Heb. אָוֶן aven - "vice", "iniquity", "potency") was the wife and sister of Cain and the daughter of Adam and Eve.[1] Similarly, her sister Azura (עֲצֻרָה atzurah - "restraint") was the wife of Cain's two brothers - Abel and after Abel's murder, Seth.


The levirate marriage with the incest context is weird = seems pretty Jewish.

http://jewishencyclopedia.com/articles/8944-jubilees-book-of

While the angelology and demonology, as well as other features, of the book point to the same date as that of the Book of Enoch and of the Testaments of the Twelve Patriarchs, there are certain facts presented by the book which warrant the assertion, made by Charles (l.c. Introduction, pp. lviii.-lxvi.), that it was written under John Hyrcanus. It refers to the subjection of the Idumeans (Esau) to the Jewish people as still existing (ch. xxxviii. 14), and to Hellenistic Jews endeavoring to pass as heathen in the athletic games (ch. iii. 30-31, xv. 33-34).


or maybe the writer was obsessed with circumcision.

Interesting digression.
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Re: The dating the Similitudes of Enoch

Postby DCHindley » Fri May 19, 2017 5:36 pm

Gosh, I should have posted sooner, as I had researched the genealogy of the patriarchs up to the flood according to the book of Jubilees which the document's properties say was "last printed 1996" but does not give the date I created this wonder.

Adam + Eve
---1) Cain + Awan (his sister)
------1) Enoch (I) + ?
---------1) Enough children to found a city
---2) Awan + Cain (her brother)
---3) Seth + Azura (his sister)
------1) Enos + Noam (his sister)
---------1) Kenan + Mualeleth (his sister)
------------1) A daughter + Rasuyal*
---------------1) Baraka + Jared
------------2) Mahalalel + Dinah
---------------1) Jared + Baraka
------------------1) A daughter + Azrial*
---------------------1) Edna + Methuselah
------------------2) Enoch (II) + Edni
---------------------1) Methuselah + Edna
------------------------1) A daughter + Rakeel*
---------------------------1) Emzara + Noah
------------------------2) Lamech + Betenos
---------------------------1) Noah + Emzara
------------------------------1) Shem
------------------------------2) Ham
------------------------------3) Japheth
---------------------2) A daughter + Barakiil*
------------------------1) Betenos + Lamech
----------------2) A daughter + Danel*
-------------------1) Edni + Enoch (II)
---------2) Mualeleth (f) + Kenan (her brother)
---------3) A daughter + Barakiel*
------------1) Dinah + Mahalalel
------2) Noam + Enos (her brother)
---4) Azura + Seth (her brother)
---5) Abel (died childless)
---6-14) 9 other children (no history recorded)

Key:

1) The line of descent traced by the Jewish scriptures is in boldface type.
2) When the line is carried through elsewhere in the chart, the boldface name is placed in italics.
3) An asterisk (*) indicates a name that is similar to names that appear in the book of 1 Enoch as an angelic Watcher who intermarried with human females.
4) An underline shows children of marriage with Watchers.

All I can say is ... wow ... the author of the book of Jubilees had a very active imagination!

DCH



edit 5/20/17: made a correction to the spacing
Last edited by DCHindley on Sat May 20, 2017 6:14 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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