How to understand a verse in Isaiah?

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theterminator
Posts: 173
Joined: Thu Oct 10, 2013 10:07 am

How to understand a verse in Isaiah?

Post by theterminator »

Hello

“I am fed up with olah-offerings of rams and the offals of fattened calves, and the blood of oxen, lambs and goats does not give Me pleasure”

Am I correct in assuming that if something does not please yhwh then yhwh does not need it?

If animal blood does not give yhwh pleasure then animal blood does not have magical atoning powers, right?

According to Isaiah, the right attitude/right spirit means you don't need blood sacrifice?
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semiopen
Posts: 471
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Re: How to understand a verse in Isaiah?

Post by semiopen »

This probably refers to
"What need have I of all your sacrifices?" Says the LORD. "I am sated with burnt offerings of rams, And suet of fatlings, And blood of bulls; And I have no delight In lambs and he-goats.
(Isa 1:11 TNK)
This is obviously sarcastic - 1:10-17 puts it in context.
Hear the word of the LORD, You chieftains of Sodom; Give ear to our God's instruction, You folk of Gomorrah! 11 "What need have I of all your sacrifices?" Says the LORD. "I am sated with burnt offerings of rams, And suet of fatlings, And blood of bulls; And I have no delight In lambs and he-goats. 12 That you come to appear before Me -- Who asked that of you? Trample My courts 13 no more; Bringing oblations is futile, Incense is offensive to Me. New moon and sabbath, Proclaiming of solemnities, Assemblies with iniquity, I cannot abide. 14 Your new moons and fixed seasons Fill Me with loathing; They are become a burden to Me, I cannot endure them. 15 And when you lift up your hands, I will turn My eyes away from you; Though you pray at length, I will not listen. Your hands are stained with crime -- 16 Wash yourselves clean; Put your evil doings Away from My sight. Cease to do evil; 17 Learn to do good. Devote yourselves to justice; Aid the wronged. Uphold the rights of the orphan; Defend the cause of the widow.
(Isa 1:10-17 TNK)
Interesting that Sabbath is no big deal here; appearing, as usual, in conjunction with the New moon.

A similar concept is that God hates idiots -https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xy0MJgnW6v4
outhouse
Posts: 3577
Joined: Fri Oct 04, 2013 6:48 pm

Re: How to understand a verse in Isaiah?

Post by outhouse »

theterminator wrote:Hello

“I am fed up with olah-offerings of rams and the offals of fattened calves, and the blood of oxen, lambs and goats does not give Me pleasure”

Am I correct in assuming that if something does not please yhwh then yhwh does not need it?

If animal blood does not give yhwh pleasure then animal blood does not have magical atoning powers, right?

According to Isaiah, the right attitude/right spirit means you don't need blood sacrifice?
This deals with proto Isaiah. At that time Judah was still polytheistic and proto Isaiah could have been in context to El.

We know part 2 and 3 were in context Yahweh. But proto I would not bet on it not being El and later redacted to Yahweh.



For me it would make sense over these contradicting passages. I would leave this at a guess though as I do not have it substantiated.
theterminator
Posts: 173
Joined: Thu Oct 10, 2013 10:07 am

Re: How to understand a verse in Isaiah?

Post by theterminator »

This is obviously sarcastic - 1:10-17 puts it in context.

Hear the word of the LORD, You chieftains of Sodom; Give ear to our God's instruction, You folk of Gomorrah! 11 "What need have I of all your sacrifices?" Says the LORD. "I am sated with burnt offerings of rams, And suet of fatlings, And blood of bulls; And I have no delight In lambs and he-goats. 12 That you come to appear before Me -- Who asked that of you? Trample My courts 13 no more; Bringing oblations is futile, Incense is offensive to Me. New moon and sabbath, Proclaiming of solemnities, Assemblies with iniquity, I cannot abide. 14 Your new moons and fixed seasons Fill Me with loathing; They are become a burden to Me, I cannot endure them. 15 And when you lift up your hands, I will turn My eyes away from you; Though you pray at length, I will not listen. Your hands are stained with crime -- 16 Wash yourselves clean; Put your evil doings Away from My sight. Cease to do evil; 17 Learn to do good. Devote yourselves to justice; Aid the wronged. Uphold the rights of the orphan; Defend the cause of the widow.
(Isa 1:10-17 TNK)
do you think that there is an IF clause hiding in isa 1:10-17 i.e if you have good ATTITUDE you can sacrifice animals?

Says the LORD. "I am sated with burnt offerings of rams, And suet of fatlings, And blood of bulls; And I have no delight In lambs and he-goats. 12 That you come to appear before Me -- Who asked that of you
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semiopen
Posts: 471
Joined: Sat Mar 08, 2014 6:27 pm

Re: How to understand a verse in Isaiah?

Post by semiopen »

I believe the interpretation you are trying to make is wrong because it is out of context . This gives a little pause because it is supposed to be sort of ok to take biblical verses out of context.

Baraita_of_Rabbi_Ishmael
The thirteen rules were compiled by Rabbi Ishmael b. Elisha for the elucidation of the Torah and for making halakic deductions from it.
3. Binyan ab: Rules deduced from a single passage of Scripture and rules deduced from two passages. This rule is a combination of the third and fourth rules of Hillel...

12. Deduction from the context.

13. When two Biblical passages contradict each other the contradiction in question must be solved by reference to a third passage.
The wiki also notes Talmudical_hermeneutics

I'm far from an expert in these things but your interpretation seems to fall short of these standards.

http://www.jewsforjudaism.ca/publicatio ... truction-1
THE COUNTER-MISSIONARY HANDBOOK
by Rabbi Bentzion kravitz
Founding Director of JEWS FOR JUDAISM, International
I don't know about this site and Rabbi Kravitz has his name spelled with a small k which is probably a typo rather than something mystical.
The notion that, without the practice of animal sacrifices, Jews cannot atone for their sins represents a blatant misinterpretation of the Jewish Bible.

First of all, sacrifices were intended only for unintentional sins (Leviticus 4:1) and served as a means of motivating individuals to true repentance. Numerous passages, including Hosea 14, inform us that today our prayers take the place of sacrifices. In addition, we read "The sacrifices of G-d are a broken spirit, a broken and contrite heart" (Psalm 51:17) and "I desire kindness and not sacrifices, the knowledge of G-d more than burnt offerings" (Hosea 6:6). Through repentance, prayer, fasting and doing what is right, the Torah teaches that everyone has the ability to return to G-d directly.
Any written work, if mistranslated or taken out of context, can be made to suggest meanings which were never intended. The New Testament is no exception. For example, in the New Testament (Luke 14:26,) Jesus is quoted as saying:

"If anyone comes to me, and does not hate his own father and mother and wife and children and brothers and sisters, yes, and even his own life, he cannot be my disciple."
http://vbm-torah.org/archive/intparsha7 ... .htm#_ftn5

Gives some commentary on the verse in Isaiah -
Here, sacrifices are viewed in a most negative light! They are rejected and resented by God. What has happened? Let us examine the passage. Isaiah talks of Sodom and Gomorrah, two cities who were destroyed by God for their inhospitable behavior and sexual perversity. Here Israel are compared to those evil towns. Israel has become a cruel and oppressive society which has no regard for the downtrodden, the orphans and widows. But concurrently, while the evil and murder continue in the streets, the people of Israel still pray and raise their hands to God; they still bring sacrifices in the Temple. There is a disparity within the religious mindset of these people. Oppression and human suffering are not seen as God's domain, but the Temple and the sacrificial rite are where one may please God. It is towards this warped philosophy that God shows his utter disdain. One cannot ignore the moral teachings of God and then expect that a sacrifice will appease God Himself. That is paganism. The Jewish God is a moral God, in every walk of life.
Samuel I 15:22, Jeremiah 7:21-23, Psalms 50:12-13, Hosea 6:7.
Are given as other relevant passages.
But Samuel said: "Does the LORD delight in burnt offerings and sacrifices As much as in obedience to the LORD's command? Surely, obedience is better than sacrifice, Compliance than the fat of rams. (1Sa 15:22 TNK)
21 Thus said the LORD of Hosts, the God of Israel: Add your burnt offerings to your other sacrifices and eat the meat!
22 For when I freed your fathers from the land of Egypt, I did not speak with them or command them concerning burnt offerings or sacrifice.
23 But this is what I commanded them: Do My bidding, that I may be your God and you may be My people; walk only in the way that I enjoin upon you, that it may go well with you. (Jer 7:21-23 TNK)
Were I hungry, I would not tell you, for Mine is the world and all it holds. 13 Do I eat the flesh of bulls, or drink the blood of he-goats?
(Psa 50:12-13 TNK)
For I desire goodness, not sacrifice; Obedience to God, rather than burnt offerings. (Hos 6:6 TNK)
cuongneymar
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Re: How to understand a verse in Isaiah?

Post by cuongneymar »

But Samuel said: "Does the LORD delight in burnt offerings and sacrifices As much as in obedience to the LORD's command? Surely, obedience is better than sacrifice, Compliance than the fat of rams
Thank Post !
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