Has Anyone Ever Suggested that the Psalms of Solomon = 70 CE

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stephan happy huller
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Has Anyone Ever Suggested that the Psalms of Solomon = 70 CE

Post by stephan happy huller » Fri Oct 18, 2013 9:43 pm

I am struck by the description of the destruction of Jerusalem:

When the sinner waxed proud, with a battering-ram he cast down fortified walls, and Thou didst not restrain (him).
Alien nations ascended Thine altar, they trampled (it) proudly with their sandals;
Because the sons of Jerusalem had defiled the holy things of the Lord, had profaned with iniquities the offerings of God.
Therefore He said: Cast them far from Me; it was set at naught before God, it was utterly dishonoured;
The sons and the daughters were in grievous captivity, sealed (sphragidi) was their neck, branded (episemw) was it among the nations. [Psalm Solomon 2:2 - 6]

Has anyone else suggested that the correct dating is late first century rather than at the time of Pompey?
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Re: Has Anyone Ever Suggested that the Psalms of Solomon = 7

Post by Peter Kirby » Fri Oct 18, 2013 10:39 pm

Dunno. Are they among the DSS?
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Re: Has Anyone Ever Suggested that the Psalms of Solomon = 7

Post by spin » Sat Oct 19, 2013 12:05 am

stephan happy huller wrote:I am struck by the description of the destruction of Jerusalem:

When the sinner waxed proud, with a battering-ram he cast down fortified walls, and Thou didst not restrain (him).
Alien nations ascended Thine altar, they trampled (it) proudly with their sandals;
Because the sons of Jerusalem had defiled the holy things of the Lord, had profaned with iniquities the offerings of God.
Therefore He said: Cast them far from Me; it was set at naught before God, it was utterly dishonoured;
The sons and the daughters were in grievous captivity, sealed (sphragidi) was their neck, branded (episemw) was it among the nations. [Psalm Solomon 2:2 - 6]

Has anyone else suggested that the correct dating is late first century rather than at the time of Pompey?
Umm, have you considered what happened in Jerusalem in 63 BCE? The Sadducees were routed and I don't think they ever got back up. (Herod imported high priests first from Babylon, then from Egypt.)

This was the first flood of slaves onto the Roman markets and how most of the early Jews ended up in Rome. And the Pharisees gloated. Those evil sinners who committed harlotries got their just ends. And the nasty SOB who captured the temple got himself assassinated as he stepped out of a boat, ie Pompey (see later in same psalm), and his body was washed by the waves. The text was written in that afterglow. The death is quite specific, though totally irrelevant to the context you are asking about.

And no, the text isn't among the DSS.
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Re: Has Anyone Ever Suggested that the Psalms of Solomon = 7

Post by stephan happy huller » Sat Oct 19, 2013 9:28 am

I know but this sounds like the arguments any apologist makes for his point of view. I have gone through the entire second psalm and I fail to see what is so specific to Pompey's sacking of the city. The only issue IMO is that there is no specific reference to 'destruction' of the temple. But I remember Vork is always arguing that there is evidence for sacrifices continuing on the altar in the immediate aftermath of the revolt. I don't know if that is true. But historical details are never very clear in these writings. I just want to know how is it so certain that we are dealing with Pompey and not Vespasian.
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The death of Pompey

Post by spin » Sat Oct 19, 2013 6:37 pm

Plutarch, Pompey

79 3 Then, as they drew near the shore, Cornelia, together with his friends, stood on the trireme watching with great anxiety for the outcome, and began to take heart when she saw many of the king's people assembling at the landing as if to give him an honourable welcome. But at this point, p323while Pompey was clasping the hand of Philip that he might rise to his feet more easily, Septimius, from behind, ran him through the body with his sword, then Salvius next, and than Achillas, drew their daggers and stabbed him.102 4 And Pompey, drawing his toga down over his face with both hands, without an act or a word that was unworthy of himself, but with a groan merely, submitted to their blows, being sixty years of age less one, and ending his life only one day after his birth-day.

80 1 When the people on the ships beheld the murder, they uttered a wailing cry that could be heard as far as the shore, and weighing anchor quickly, took to flight. And a strong wind came to their aid as they ran out to sea, so that the Egyptians, though desirous of pursuing, turned back. But they cut off Pompey's head, and threw the rest of his body unclothed out of the boat, and left it for those who craved so pitiful a sight. 2 Philip, however, stayed by the body, until such had taken their fill of gazing; then he washed it in sea-water, wrapped it in a tunic of his own, and since he had no other supply, sought along the coast until he found the remnants of a small fishing-boat, old stuff, indeed, but sufficient to furnish a funeral pyre that would answer for an unclothed corpse, and that too not entire.


Ps. Sol. 2

26 And I had not long to wait before God showed me the insolent one
Slain on the mountains of Egypt,
Esteemed of less account than the least on land and sea;
27 His body carried about on the waves in much shame,
With no-one to bury (him), because He had rejected him with contempt.
28 He did not consider that he was man.
And reflected not on the latter end;
29 He said: "I shall be lord of land and sea"....
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Pompey's arrival in Jerusalem

Post by spin » Sat Oct 19, 2013 7:12 pm

Ps. Sol. 8

15 He [god] brought him that is from the end of the earth, that attacks with strength;
He declared war against Jerusalem, and against her land.
16 The princes of the land met him with joy: they said unto him:
Blessed be thy way! Come, enter in peace.
17 They made the rough ways even, before his entering in;
They opened the gates to Jerusalem, they crowned its walls.
18 As a father enters the house of his sons, he entered in peace;
He set his feet securely.

19 He captured her fortresses and the wall of Jerusalem;
For God Himself led him in safety, while they wandered.
20 He destroyed their princes and every one wise in counsel;
He poured out the blood of the inhabitants of Jerusalem, like the water of uncleanness.
21 He led away their sons and daughters, whom they had begotten in defilement.
22 They did according to their uncleanness, as their fathers (had done):
They defiled Jerusalem and the things that had been consecrated in the name of God.
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Re: Has Anyone Ever Suggested that the Psalms of Solomon = 7

Post by stephan happy huller » Sun Oct 20, 2013 9:34 pm

Yeah that's pretty good.
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Re: Has Anyone Ever Suggested that the Psalms of Solomon = 7

Post by beowulf » Tue Nov 05, 2013 2:50 am

Arnaldo Momigliano
On Pagans, Jews and Christians
Chapter 5 Religion in Athens, Rome and Jerusalem in the first century BC

The Psalms of Solomon indicated both an orientation and a mood which are different from anything we may surmise in Rome and Athens. Defeat is faced: it is directly related to God. No political interpretation is offered. What the writer hopes for, however, is a new politeia in the Davidic tradition: institutional concern is the consequence of religious scruples....

We may say that the Psalms of Solomon point toward the equivalence of perfect trust in god with salvation as formulated in the grand finale of the tract Beshallah of the Mekhiltah de Rabbi Ishmael, the date of which I do not know(4)
Note 4 it will be enough to refer to the bibliography of S. Holm-Nielsen...

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