Richard Carrier and the burial in heaven.

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Stephan Huller
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Re: Richard Carrier and the burial in heaven.

Post by Stephan Huller » Sat Jul 18, 2015 8:06 am

I won't deny that this is petty but why don't my contributions to the discussion get props when they are by far the best? Knowledge - actual familiarity with Biblical tradition - trumps all these "deductive" linguistic convoluted arguments IMO. They are never decisive. Always puzzling

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Secret Alias
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Re: Richard Carrier and the burial in heaven.

Post by Secret Alias » Sat Jul 18, 2015 9:29 am

After cutting up linguistic arguments let me contradict myself and demonstrate how they can be decisive.

Deuteronomy 33:15 corrupt Jewish text 'eternal hills' Samaritan text 'eternal hill' Givat Olam. The name Eternal Hill is based on Deut 33:15; the SP reads gb 't instead of the plural gb 'wt in the MT. Moses asked God to bless Joseph "With the best from the ancient mountains, and the abundance of the everlasting hill." The appellation occurs in various contexts in the Samaritan liturgy. In the narrow sense, Eternal Hill refers to a flat rock on the top of Mount Gerizim, but in a wider sense it means the whole mountain. Not far from the rock, the Eternal Hill in the narrow sense, is the site where, according to Samaritan tradition, Isaac was to be sacrificed. In Gen 22:2 the SP reads hmwr'h instead of the MT's hmwryh and mwr'h in Samaritan tradition is identified with mwr' (MT mwrh) near Shechem, in Gen 12:6. The Twelve Stones of Joshua go back to the Samaritan reading 'Gerizim' instead of 'Ebal' in Deut 27:4
To them Gerizim meant far more than Jerusalem had ever meant to exilic or Palestinian Jewry. They not only defied overt natural facts by claiming that their sacred hill was taller than Ebal (it is in fact some 200 feet lower), indeed was the tallest of all mountains, but also believed that it had been the original site of the Garden of Eden, that it was the scene of the sacrifice of Isaac and that at the end of days it would become the location of Paradise. Or, as they phrased it, "the Eternal Hill shall be left in the midst of the Garden." https://books.google.com/books?id=Xr2dw ... 22&f=false
So now look at Deuteronomy 33:15 in its original form in the original cultural context. Why is Genesis placed at the beginning of a book which is mostly about the Israelite exodus from Egypt? Once the text is read in the original way it was intended it is obvious. The story of Adam and Eve (the second chapter of the first book) occurs in the very place that the second last chapter of the last book deals with - i.e. Israel is promised 'redemption' from Adam's original sin. It's amazing that with all these scholars they know little or nothing. It's so obvious and it makes Christianity's interest in Adamic sin all the less 'sectarian' and strange. Christianity succeeded because its interest was core and fundamental to the Biblical tradition. It wasn't a fucking 'innovation' by Paul. Fucking morons.
“Finally, from so little sleeping and so much reading, his brain dried up and he went completely out of his mind.”
― Miguel de Cervantes Saavedra, Don Quixote

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Secret Alias
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Re: Richard Carrier and the burial in heaven.

Post by Secret Alias » Sat Jul 18, 2015 9:35 am

Do you see (again speaking to 'people behind you' i.e. the group not just you Ben) how everything makes sense? Adam is buried on the eternal hill which in one way in 'on earth' but also at the same time 'in heaven'? To me it's decided because the oldest (= original) tradition forces or compels us to read it in this manner. I have always wondered if the crucifixion ever occurred in Jerusalem originally. I don't know for sure that it didn't. It would help reconcile all of Doherty's arguments in the same way - i.e. crucified in heaven but on earth. No real evidence yet to support a defense or anything. But in the case of Adam that's where Adam and ALL THE PATRIARCHS are according to the Samaritan tradition. Paradise is on earth but in heaven at the top of this 'eternal hill.'
“Finally, from so little sleeping and so much reading, his brain dried up and he went completely out of his mind.”
― Miguel de Cervantes Saavedra, Don Quixote

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Secret Alias
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Re: Richard Carrier and the burial in heaven.

Post by Secret Alias » Sat Jul 18, 2015 9:42 am

But just to explain it to the crowd, all of the Torah now comes full circle. It's all about heaven or Paradise (more correctly) at the top of Gerizim somehow (in another parallel dimension?). This is the 'point' of the story of the five books.
“Finally, from so little sleeping and so much reading, his brain dried up and he went completely out of his mind.”
― Miguel de Cervantes Saavedra, Don Quixote

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Secret Alias
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Re: Richard Carrier and the burial in heaven.

Post by Secret Alias » Sat Jul 18, 2015 9:44 am

It all 'makes sense' now because it ties up all the loose ends including the location of Adam burial (see bottom of page https://books.google.com/books?id=CgzLa ... ed&f=false). Cased closed in my mind.
“Finally, from so little sleeping and so much reading, his brain dried up and he went completely out of his mind.”
― Miguel de Cervantes Saavedra, Don Quixote

semiopen
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Re: Richard Carrier and the burial in heaven.

Post by semiopen » Sat Jul 18, 2015 9:51 am

I don't think Carrier would make any attempts at biblical exegesis at all if it wasn't to try to demonstrate that Yoshke didn't exist However, I certainly agree the subject is interesting.

Enoch, Elijah, and maybe Moses are more clear cases of people sucked directly into heaven.

Stephen, I thought Secret Alias's posts were very interesting. The two Johns are getting to be ancient history now, but personally I thought it correct etiquette to treat Secret Alias as another person.

I was surprised to read that Adam hung out on the Temple Mount after leaving Eden (apparently masturbating there), so it only makes sense that Mt Gerizim is also a contender for the honor.

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Secret Alias
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Re: Richard Carrier and the burial in heaven.

Post by Secret Alias » Sat Jul 18, 2015 9:52 am

The Samaritans had their own tradition, namely that Adam was buried at Mount Gerizim (J. MacDonald, The Theology of the Samaritans)

It is possible that this is a later tradition than that concerning Adam's burial in the place where he was created ... in the Samaritan Memar Marquah II 10, ed. J. MacDonald, in: Beth Zeitschr. fur die alttestmentl. Wissensch. 84, Berlin 1963, p. 73-78, it was on Mount Gerizim that Adam was created. https://books.google.com/books?id=zpY3A ... ed&f=false

The Samaritans held a similar view but identified the place of Adam's creation. Eden, and burial place as Mount Gerizim https://books.google.com/books?id=RU77e ... ld&f=false
“Finally, from so little sleeping and so much reading, his brain dried up and he went completely out of his mind.”
― Miguel de Cervantes Saavedra, Don Quixote

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Ben C. Smith
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Re: Richard Carrier and the burial in heaven.

Post by Ben C. Smith » Sat Jul 18, 2015 10:17 am

Stephan Huller wrote:I won't deny that this is petty but why don't my contributions to the discussion get props when they are by far the best? Knowledge - actual familiarity with Biblical tradition - trumps all these "deductive" linguistic convoluted arguments IMO. They are never decisive. Always puzzling
I do appreciate you sharing the information; my delay in responding is because I have a lot going on, and there was a lot to go over to make sure I was understanding you. Likewise, I have not yet responded to Andrew Criddle because I am still going over some of the things said on that link he provided. Patience, man, patience.

So far, however, I do not exactly see how the Samaritan tradition you cite...:

This is because Paradise was once on earth but is now - with the disappearance of the top of the mountain - fully in heaven.

...helps us with this text, in which there are clearly two places called Paradise, not one that has moved. The traditions have seemingly diverged somewhat.

On a separate note, to undercut the very idea of drawing conclusions from the text and then debating them, using linguistics (a funny way to refer to reading another language, I am guessing), is fatal to pretty much all positions equally. How did you, for example, learn that the Samaritans thought the top of the mountain had disappeared? Did you interview ancient Samaritans using time travel? Did you see it happen in living Samaritan consciousnesses using a Spockian mind-meld technique? Surely you read it and understood it in a text somewhere.

Familiarity with Biblical tradition comes principally by reading that tradition and trying to understand it. That is what I am doing, and I will continue to do so, unapologetically, despite whatever rebukes you throw my way in some weird attempt to shame me out of it.

Ben.
ΤΙ ΕΣΤΙΝ ΑΛΗΘΕΙΑ

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Secret Alias
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Re: Richard Carrier and the burial in heaven.

Post by Secret Alias » Sat Jul 18, 2015 10:21 am

the Elder said: Adam was created out of dust taken from the place of his atonement, just as you (the verse) say(s), "An altar of earth (adamah) thou shalt make unto Me" (Exodus 20; 21). Said the Holy One blessed be He: I shall create him from the place of his atonement. Would that he may survive. Seder Eliyahu Zuta chapter 2, ed. Friedmann p. 173, has the same basic motif, but reversed: The place from which Adam's dust was taken, there was the altar built, as it is said etc. Only by the power of repentance and atonement could Adam, and indeed mankind as a whole, survive, See Maimonides, Mishneh Torah, Bet ha-Behirah 2:2 R. Behai, commentary to Lev. 7:34, ed. Chavel 2, p. 434). In a variation on this theme, found in Pirke de-R. Eliezer chapters 11, 12 and 20, we read that God collected the dust for the body of Adam "from the four corners of the world, but He formed the lumps of the dust . . . into a mass ... in a clean place ... on the navel of the earth (chapter 11, Friedlander, pp. 77-78). For "with love abounding did the Holy One blessed be He, love the first man (Adam), inasmuch as he created him in a pure locality, in the place of the Temple" (chapter 12, ad ink., Friedlander p. 84).* According to Ginzberg, Legends 6, p. 73 note 16, this is a later development in which "two different legends have been united, and it is asserted that dust taken from the various parts of the earth, out of which Adam's body was formed . . . was kneaded at the holy place in in Jerusalem" (and cf. ibid., pp. 72 - 73). The common factor to both these variations is that Jerusalem, the Temple and/or the altar play central roles in the creation of Adam, the archetypal man.* * Adam's subsequent relationship to this spot is expressed in the legend according to Adam's subsequent relationship to this spot is expressed in the legend according to which he sacrificed his first offering there [my note one of the holy places on Gerizim is the so-called 'Altar of Adam' 'qv] ... Friedlander pp. 171, 227); Midrash ha-Gaddol Genesis 8:20, ed. Margulies p. 179; Targum Yerushalmi to Genesis 8:20, also mentioning Cain and Abel; ibid., 22:9, 353-54. On the sacrifice see B. Avoda Zarah 8a, (and note that Ms. J.T.S, ed.

1 note that the correct reading is "in a purer locality" not "from a pure locality" see ibid., note 2; and so too is the reading in M. Higger's edition, Horev 9/17-18, 1946, p. 101. It may be noted that the Samaritans adapted this same legend to their own uses, substituting Mount Gerizim for the Mount of Moriah. See S. Lieberman, Tosefta Ki-fshutah 8, New York 1973, p. 988 (citing Macdonald's edition of Marka's Sefer Peliata, 10, II p. 46). ** See Lurya's notes in his edition, 276 note 28, 28a note 36, 29a note 2, 46a note 4, and Friedlander's notes ad loc. Also cf. Ginzberg, Legends 5, p. 117 note 109.
“Finally, from so little sleeping and so much reading, his brain dried up and he went completely out of his mind.”
― Miguel de Cervantes Saavedra, Don Quixote

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Secret Alias
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Re: Richard Carrier and the burial in heaven.

Post by Secret Alias » Sat Jul 18, 2015 10:22 am

As opposed to these dummies it is impossible to argue that the Samaritans borrowed a Jewish tradition but rather (as Charlesworth and many other MODERN scholars would recognize) the Jewish beliefs are just corruptions of the original Samaritan one.
“Finally, from so little sleeping and so much reading, his brain dried up and he went completely out of his mind.”
― Miguel de Cervantes Saavedra, Don Quixote

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