Richard Carrier and the burial in heaven.

Discussion about the Hebrew Bible, Septuagint, pseudepigrapha, Philo, Josephus, Talmud, Dead Sea Scrolls, archaeology, etc.
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Secret Alias
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Re: Richard Carrier and the burial in heaven.

Post by Secret Alias » Sat Jul 18, 2015 10:29 am

I even wonder if 1 Corinthians 15 is somehow related to this situation.
“Finally, from so little sleeping and so much reading, his brain dried up and he went completely out of his mind.”
― Miguel de Cervantes Saavedra, Don Quixote

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Re: Richard Carrier and the burial in heaven.

Post by Secret Alias » Sat Jul 18, 2015 10:37 am

This is decisive in my mind (as to the originality of the Samaritan tradition):

Also according to Apocalypse of Moses, Adam's body was buried "in the place where God found the dust" (40:6). However, according to Vitae Adae et Evae 48:6, Adam was buried in parts of Paradise (48:6). According to Tg Ps-J Gen 2:7 and 2:15, the place where Adam was created was the place of the Temple ([2:7] "And he took dust from the site of the sanctuary"; [2:15] "Then God took Adam from the mountain of worship, the place where he had been created." Tg Ps-J does not mention Adam's burial; however, according to Tg Ps-J Gen 3:23, Adam returns to "Mount Moriah from which he had been created." Also, according to rabbinic literature (e.g., PTNazir 7, 56b; Gen r 14:8), the place where Adam was created was the place of the Temple. However, this is not the place of Adam's burial. The general opinion is that he was buried in the Cave of Machpelah, where not only Adam and Eve, but also Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob and their wives were thought to be buried (BT Baba Bathra 58a; BT Erub 53a). In Pirqe de Rabbi Eliezer 20 it is stated that Adam built a mausoleum beyond Mount Moriah for himself. This would seem to indicate a place in the neighbourhood of the temple. However, it is further stated that "therefore it is called Cave of Machpelah." See A.FJ. Klijn, Seth in Jewish,
Christian and Gnostic Literature (NTS, 46), Leiden, 1977, 42-43. http://pibbethel.no-ip.org/biblioteca/w ... ianity.pdf
“Finally, from so little sleeping and so much reading, his brain dried up and he went completely out of his mind.”
― Miguel de Cervantes Saavedra, Don Quixote

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Re: Richard Carrier and the burial in heaven.

Post by Secret Alias » Sat Jul 18, 2015 10:38 am

If Jewish studies wasn't as influenced by Jewish believers (who necessarily assume that they have the 'true tradition' as Christianity by similarly minded believers most of this crap would have been flushed down the toilet a long ago ...
“Finally, from so little sleeping and so much reading, his brain dried up and he went completely out of his mind.”
― Miguel de Cervantes Saavedra, Don Quixote

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Re: Richard Carrier and the burial in heaven.

Post by Secret Alias » Sat Jul 18, 2015 10:39 am

The heavenly Jerusalem of the Apocalypse is just another corruption of the 'occultation of the top of the mountain' (mount Gerizim) legend of the Samaritans.
“Finally, from so little sleeping and so much reading, his brain dried up and he went completely out of his mind.”
― Miguel de Cervantes Saavedra, Don Quixote

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Re: Richard Carrier and the burial in heaven.

Post by Secret Alias » Sat Jul 18, 2015 10:40 am

What would the crucifixion on mount Gerizim change? Certainly our understanding of the development of the cross as the 'tree of life.' It would be 'literally true' that Jesus was crucified in Paradise ...
“Finally, from so little sleeping and so much reading, his brain dried up and he went completely out of his mind.”
― Miguel de Cervantes Saavedra, Don Quixote

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Re: Richard Carrier and the burial in heaven.

Post by Secret Alias » Sat Jul 18, 2015 10:42 am

Pilate does arrest a party of messianists on Gerizim which ultimately sets about his recall. The same idea is appropriated in early Christian literature (i.e. that Pilate was punished for crucifying Jesus). If this was the 'historical' betrayal one could again have myth and history interwoven
“Finally, from so little sleeping and so much reading, his brain dried up and he went completely out of his mind.”
― Miguel de Cervantes Saavedra, Don Quixote

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Re: Richard Carrier and the burial in heaven.

Post by Secret Alias » Sat Jul 18, 2015 10:46 am

At the very least some of the aspects of Hebrews is better explained by an appeal to Samaritan tradition. It is one of the recognized 'contexts' for interpreting Hebrews and is mentioned in virtually every critical edition of the text:

E. A. Knox, in his 1927 article, “The Samaritans and the Epistle the Hebrews,” was the first to suggest “the possibility that the Epistle to the Hebrews might have been written to Samaritan Christians.”81 In that ar- ticle, Knox provided a survey of the characteristics of Hebrews that he felt would appeal to Samaritans ... https://books.google.com/books?id=meMFB ... 22&f=false
“Finally, from so little sleeping and so much reading, his brain dried up and he went completely out of his mind.”
― Miguel de Cervantes Saavedra, Don Quixote

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Re: Richard Carrier and the burial in heaven.

Post by Secret Alias » Sat Jul 18, 2015 10:49 am

a lengthier discussion of Hebrews Samaritan context:

https://books.google.com/books?id=bMZrJ ... ns&f=false
“Finally, from so little sleeping and so much reading, his brain dried up and he went completely out of his mind.”
― Miguel de Cervantes Saavedra, Don Quixote

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Re: Richard Carrier and the burial in heaven.

Post by Secret Alias » Sat Jul 18, 2015 10:50 am

The issue is as always that scholars have little familiarity with all the nuances of Samaritan tradition. If the Samaritan context of Hebrews is accepted then it opens the door in my mind to the possibility that a distinct 'Samaritan gospel' existed which understood Jesus to have been crucified in Paradise i.e. on earth but also in heaven according to that unique 'two worlds' situation that Hebrews partakes and which Scobie makes reference to in his analysis which is uniquely Samaritan.
“Finally, from so little sleeping and so much reading, his brain dried up and he went completely out of his mind.”
― Miguel de Cervantes Saavedra, Don Quixote

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Re: Richard Carrier and the burial in heaven.

Post by Secret Alias » Sat Jul 18, 2015 10:53 am

Of course as this does little to assist the 'mythicists' desire to wipe out Christian belief it will also effectively render the arguments opened by Doherty as useless (and therefore interest will wane). But the 'on earth/but in heaven' position for all of these things is uniquely possible within Samaritanism. It also happens to be the right answer IMHO.
“Finally, from so little sleeping and so much reading, his brain dried up and he went completely out of his mind.”
― Miguel de Cervantes Saavedra, Don Quixote

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