The personification of the Shekhinah

Discussion about the Hebrew Bible, Septuagint, pseudepigrapha, Philo, Josephus, Talmud, Dead Sea Scrolls, archaeology, etc.
iskander
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Re: The personification of the Shekhinah

Post by iskander » Thu Sep 24, 2015 2:03 pm

Which concept to drop?

God is unknowable and utterly indifferent in many enlightened theological systems .In those systems ,God has no attributes and he is remote , but people do not love that God.


In Judaism
G-d has no emotions. Zero. Nada. G-d is totally Simple. An emotional reaction - love, hate, loneliness, excitement - would mean, chas v’sholom, that… All of this means that believing that Hashem has emotions is avodah zorah, since by saying that you are making Hashem into a finite, composite, and measurable being
.
http://www.jewswithquestions.com/index. ... -emotions/


In Hinduism
Nirguna means “without attributes”. The term “Nirguna Brahman” implies that God as the Absolute Spirit and Pure Consciousness has no name and form or attributes.
http://luthar.com/2009/04/05/what-is-sa ... -k-luthar/


in Christianity ,
the only way is the apophatic or negative theology , in order to draw near to the Unknown in the darkness of absolute ignorance.

The mystical theology of the Eastern Church
Vladimir Lossky
page 25


Religions invent gods with human characteristics to sell its mercy and rule. People seem to need a human god as their friend and master.

Image

semiopen
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Re: The personification of the Shekhinah

Post by semiopen » Thu Sep 24, 2015 3:36 pm

I don't have a problem with Christian theo-mythology, just suggesting messianic belief isn't (or shouldn't be) fundamental to Judaism, despite what the thirteen principles state.

Regarding, the personification of God etc, the 10 commandments makes it pretty clear that that is a sensitive subject with the big guy. This is a more significant principle than messianism, and moreover doesn't require a series of impossible things happening in the future.

iskander
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Re: The personification of the Shekhinah

Post by iskander » Wed Mar 02, 2016 3:18 am

The belief in the messiah is the foundation of Judaism, says Rabbi Pinchas Taylor


http://www.torahcafe.com/rabbi-pinchas- ... 16c59.html

semiopen
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Re: The personification of the Shekhinah

Post by semiopen » Wed Mar 02, 2016 5:39 am

The guy points out it is one of Maimonides 13 principles of faith.

http://www.mesora.org/13principles.html

I don't know if those get more outrageous as the numbers get higher, but it is only 12th. 13th is the resurrection of the dead.

I think one through five make a little sense, not sure about whether we can call them principles except maybe 2 - Unity of God.

One of Semiopen's principles is that if a Rabbi talks about Moshiach in English instead of Messiah, he is sort of a dick.

iskander
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Re: The personification of the Shekhinah

Post by iskander » Wed Mar 02, 2016 6:40 am

Almost every rabbi does this sort of thing, even long sentences are added.. Catholic priests add Latin words; Muslim priests add Arabic words; Hindu priests Hindi words and so forth .


He said the messiah was the foundation and the principle of principles etc. The messiah is awaited as the true redeemer ... even by very, very happy Americans!

Maimonides compiled a sort of brief catechism.

semiopen
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Re: The personification of the Shekhinah

Post by semiopen » Wed Mar 02, 2016 11:56 am

There is a corollary in Semiopen's principles that all Rabbis are jerks. Those that say "Moshiach" are just a little more pretentious and thereby achieve the epithet of dick.

My problem with the Rabbi, in this case, is that he is implying that people who do not believe in that ridiculous concept are not Jews.

Maimonides came up with the 13 principles pretty much because gentiles had something similar(perhaps your catechism). His principles are not binding and there is even some doubt that he himself believed in the 13th.

A point of principle: Why did Maimonides write his creeds? - http://www.oztorah.com/2011/05/a-point- ... is-creeds/

Despite being written by a Rabbi, the link goes into a decent discussion of the issues.
Marc Shapiro points out in Torah u-Madda Journal (vol. 4, 1993) and in The Limits of Orthodox Theology: Maimonides’ 13 Principles Reappraised, 2004, that each of Maimonides’ principles met with opposition...
Ironically, Kabbalah (which is more or less the underlying idea of this thread) developed in opposition to the Maimonidean principles.

http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jso ... 13046.html discusses the Maimonidean Controversy which went on for almost two centuries.

Afterwards, we have the Zohar, Lurianic Kabbalah, the Sabbatean Heresy, and finally the simultaneous rise of Hasidism and Secularism in the 18th and 19th centuries all of which fubarred the messianic concept. Messianism was already degenerate in second temple times and isn't any better today.

The overarching principle of modern religious Jews is to portray Judaism as having a consistency from ancient times that is pretty much a damned lie.

iskander
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Re: The personification of the Shekhinah

Post by iskander » Wed Mar 02, 2016 12:59 pm

thank you, Semiopen


The 13 principles of Maimonides are not my concern. I know they are not dogma.

Dogma in the Catholic Church functions as a test of membership which permits the authority to expel from the Catholic community any unbelieving individual .The number of dogmas and the consequences of refusal have both varied over time.
Baruch Spinoza was expelled from the Jewish community and today a Catholic dissenter is declared to be no longer in Communion with Rome.

Listening to the video under discussion it was possible for me to identify some Christian themes : resurrection of the dead when the messiah arrives, the seemingly arbitrary timing of his appearance, the profound changes messiah will make in our lives, the redemptive perception of his coming, an explanation of the mysterious " Kingdom of God" in the Gospel of Mark, and so on.

I found his talk informative and I know more about alien people and their esoteric digressions on familiar themes . I wanted to know your opinion on the importance for Judaism of the belief in the messiah .

PS,I deeply dislike priests of any kind and I loathe gods and karmas

semiopen
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Re: The personification of the Shekhinah

Post by semiopen » Thu Mar 03, 2016 10:05 am

The thing that sets me off about religious guys is that they totally ignore history.

In the case of the messiah, the whole concept fails if the earth wasn't created in six days. So however comforting the idea of a redeemer is, it just doesn't work on any kind of rational basis in Judaism.

I've been reading - The Gaon of Vilna and His Messianic Vision by Dr. Arie Morgenstern http://www.amazon.com/Gaon-Vilna-His-Me ... n+of+vilna

He discusses Jewish activity in Palestine in the 18th century.

There was Lurianic_Kabbalah end of the 16th century, followed not too coincidentally by Sabbatai_Zevi in the 17th which was catastrophic. In the 18th they figured the Messiah was coming between 1740 and 1781 because of the Messianic Clock. Of course, it turns out they were a little optimistic, but we know for sure that the Messiah will arrive by the Jewish Year 6000.
200-Year-Old “Messiah Clock” Sets Last Possible Date for Final Redemption - and the Timing Will Surprise You!
http://www.breakingisraelnews.com/46995 ... xjcfhcO.99

The main idea here is
For in Your sight a thousand years are like yesterday that has past, like a watch of the night.
(Psa 90:4 TNK)
So 6000 years are six days which means that the messiah has to show up on the seventh (Shabbat).

However the messiah might come early -
The smallest shall become a clan; The least, a mighty nation. I the LORD will speed it in due time. (Isa 60:22 TNK)
Even though we know that the messiah must come by 6000, his arrival can be hastened. Figuring that each millenium is one day, that means that the first 500 years is night followed by 500 years of day. 5500 is therefore daybreak on Friday and 6000 is nighttime on Shabbat.
An hour by this reckoning is 83 1/3 years. I think this might be credited to Immanuel Hai Ricchi - http://www.jewishencyclopedia.com/artic ... en-abraham

So they figured the Messiah would show up a little after that, hence 1740-1781.

According to the Zohar, the second temple was destroyed when "the shadows of the evening tilted." This apparently happens a little after midday, like about 12:30. Gets a little confusing but that is why they came up with the 40 year period starting a little after 1739.
Currently, based on the time of the Messiah clock, the year 6000 will occur in 2239 of the Gregorian calendar, indicating that the Messiah must arrive before then.
Why the link says this is a surprise is not clear, I can imagine the timing might surprise many gentiles and even some Jews, but that is really Kabbalah 100 for those not advanced enough to take 101.

Anyway the deadline will expire in a couple of hundred years.

I don't think this has anything in common with Christianity (of course, depending on how you look at it). The only saving grace to all this psychotic drivel is that the history is interesting; fascinating even. However that's the one topic the shmuck is not interested in discussing.

iskander
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Re: The personification of the Shekhinah

Post by iskander » Thu Mar 03, 2016 3:44 pm

The arrival of the messiah can be hastened and this explains the message in the gospel of Mark urging people to return, repent and be good to hasten the arrival of the "Kingdom of God" Also the book Revelation of John seems to echo the pre-messianic troubles.

Apparently the messianic clock says it is now Friday afternoon !

iskander
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Joined: Thu Aug 13, 2015 12:38 pm

Re: The personification of the Shekhinah

Post by iskander » Sat Aug 13, 2016 5:33 am

Genesis 18. and “scribal corrections” .


A Peshat Reading – God as One of the Guests
"Although clever and ethically uplifting, the traditional reading is not the peshat, the plain meaning of the text.[8] The peshat reading, which is in consonance with modern literary analysis, is rather straightforward. In verse 1, we are given an introduction that God appeared to Abraham. That appearance then begins in verse 2, and of the 3 “people” Abraham sees, one is God personified while the other 2 are angels or messengers of God.[9] In verse 3, Abraham is then addressing God directly. In verses 4-5 Abraham then addresses all 3 of his potential guests, as implied by the shift from singular (v. 3) to plural (vv. 4-5)."

The Tikkun Soferim
" The peshat reading suggested above goes further than just clearing up some awkwardness in the narrative; it also confirms an ancient tradition regarding the reading of the text (Gen. Rab. 49:7): “[The angels] went to Sodom and Abraham remained standing before the Lord” – Rabbi Simon says: “This is a correction of the scribes (tikkun soferim), for the presence of God was waiting for Abraham.” [10]
According to Rabbi Simon’s statment, also cited by Rashi ( ad loc.), verse 22 originally read “the Lord remained standing before Abraham.”
http://thetorah.com/vayera-vision-or-visit/

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