Zechariah 12:9-14

[theterminator]

And it shall come to pass on that day, that I will seek to destroy all the nations that come upon Jerusalem. And I will pour out upon the house of David and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem a spirit of grace and supplications. And they shall look to me because of those who have been thrust through [with swords], and they shall mourn over it as one mourns over an only son and shall be in bitterness, therefore, as one is embittered over a firstborn son. On that day there shall be great mourning in Jerusalem, like the mourning of Hadadrimmon in the Valley of Megiddon. And the land shall mourn, every family apart: The family of the house of David apart, and their wives apart; the family of the house of Nathan apart, and their wives apart. The family of the house of Levi apart, and their wives apart; the family of the Shimeites apart, and their wives apart. All the remaining families-every family apart, and their wives apart. - Zechariah 12:9-14.

christians say that lesser part of thier god got pierced
jews say that thier god didn't get pierced.

who is right? can we see an explanation of the hebrew words
thanks

[Duvduv]

If this metaphor were so important throughout Christianity, one would have to wonder why it only appears in a single gospel story (John 19:34), and is not a banner metaphor.......And why the single gospel reference does not even allude to this passage in Zechariah......possibly it's because the Romans who put the Christian canon together after Constantine did not consider it significant, or did not think it even applied.

[semiopen2]

The Christian translations translate dqr as pierced such as all of the one's here

http://biblehub.com/zechariah/12-10.htm

This is the entry for Strong's Concordance

http://www.blueletterbible.org/lang/lex ... ongs=H1856

Note that while dqr does have a primary meaning of pierced most of the examples have the sense of run through.

The Jewish sources are translated a little different -

But I will fill the House of David and the inhabitants of Jerusalem with a spirit of pity and compassion; and they shall lament to Me about those who are slain, wailing over them as over a favorite son and showing bitter grief as over a first-born. (Zec 12:10 TNK)

And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplication; and they shall look unto Me because they have thrust him through; and they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for his only son, and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for his first-born. (Zec 12:10 JPS)

It seems that pierced is a Christian code word and that the Jewish sources don't want to throw them a bone. TNK (JPS 1985) looks like the better translation, they don't even want to throw the Xians the only son bone - correctly I think.

Not that I have any expertise in Hebrew, but the subject is not easy to discuss without a way to show Hebrew characters on here.

I don't see anything all that amazing here for the Christian side.

[arnoldo]

If this metaphor were so important throughout Christianity, one would have to wonder why it only appears in a single gospel story (John 19:34), and is not a banner metaphor.......And why the single gospel reference does not even allude to this passage in Zechariah......possibly it's because the Romans who put the Christian canon together after Constantine did not consider it significant, or did not think it even applied.

It was signficant enough to be included in Revelation 1:7.

[Duvduv]

That is hardly a banner metaphor in the gospels and Paul.......and Acts.........

If this metaphor were so important throughout Christianity, one would have to wonder why it only appears in a single gospel story (John 19:34), and is not a banner metaphor.......And why the single gospel reference does not even allude to this passage in Zechariah......possibly it's because the Romans who put the Christian canon together after Constantine did not consider it significant, or did not think it even applied.

It was signficant enough to be included in Revelation 1:7.

[semiopen2]

During the 60s and 70s I made a half hearted attempt to interpret the songs of Bob Dylan.

The idea was that there are certain code words that always mean the same thing - for example "rain" is a code word for "war".

In this passage we have code words like "pierced" "Jerusalem" "house of David" "only son/first born son"

וְהִבִּיטוּ אֵלַי, אֵת אֲשֶׁר-דָּקָרוּ.

And they shall look on me who they have pierced.

I noticed there is a lot of weirdo Christian attention to this but not that much from an academic perspective.

Zechariah 12:10
Another Case of Rabbinical Revisionism?

http://www.therefinersfire.org/rabbinic ... ionism.htm

Which goes on to mistranslate the verse and get in some non-anti-Semitic digs at the JPS.

I think this youtube does a good job of explaining how to translate this

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X4HezBaSlSs

However, as the guy points out at the end

the continuation -

and they shall mourn for him (Zec 12:10 JPS)

sort of makes the whole discussion even more idiotic because if it was God bitching about being pierced he would say "for me."

I don't think there is a real dispute about this, but maybe someone can site an educated opinion supporting the crazy Christian reading.

[beowulf]

Religious books are full of ambiguous passages written in dead languages which were spoken by dead cultures .These passages admit to several interpretations. Zechariah 12:10 is one of those passages: the 12th Chapter in the Book of Zechariah is about a war.

This verse may be interpreted as alluding to the death of some unknown hero . It may also be interpreted as a messianic prophecy perhaps yet to be fulfilled.

If a dissident group should favour one interpretation over the one chosen by the dominant group, then a conflict will follow and ugly words will be said and uglier deeds will be done.

The Christian interpretation is one and the Jewish interpretation is another.

[arnoldo]

Religious books are full of ambiguous passages written in dead languages which were spoken by dead cultures .These passages admit to several interpretations. Zechariah 12:10 is one of those passages: the 12th Chapter in the Book of Zechariah is about a war.

This verse may be interpreted as alluding to the death of some unknown hero . It may also be interpreted as a messianic prophecy perhaps yet to be fulfilled.

If a dissident group should favour one interpretation over the one chosen by the dominant group, then a conflict will follow and ugly words will be said and uglier deeds will be done.

The Christian interpretation is one and the Jewish interpretation is another.

Marcion, Valentinus and other proto-heretic christians probably interpreted this passage a little differently than proto-orthodox christians such as Justin Martyr and Irenaeus. Whereas the former group perhaps argued that Jesus only appeared to have a real earthly existence the latter group claimed that Jesus in fact was physically pierced during his crucifiction on earth. Irenaeus,

And how, again, supposing that He was not flesh, but was a man merely in appearance, could He have been crucified, and could blood and water have issued from His pierced side? What body, moreover, was it that those who buried Him consigned to the tomb? And what was that which rose again from the dead?

3. [This spiritual man] shall also judge all the followers of Valentinus, because they do indeed confess with the tongue one God the Father, and that all things derive their existence from Him, but do at the same time maintain that He who formed all things is the fruit of an apostasy or defect.

http://www.earlychristianwritings.com/t ... book4.html

Zechariah 12:10 also served the proto-orthodox christians to argue for two advents of Christ. Justin Martyr,

CHAPTER XXXII -- TRYPHO OBJECTING THAT CHRIST IS DESCRIBED AS GLORIOUS BY DANIEL, JUSTIN DISTINGUISHES TWO ADVENTS.

And when I had ceased, Trypho said, "These and such like Scriptures, sir, compel us to wait for Him who, as Son of man, receives from the Ancient of days the everlasting kingdom. But this so-called Christ of yours was dishonourable and inglorious, so much so that the last curse contained in the law of God fell on him, for he was crucified."

Then I replied to him, "If, sirs, it were not said by the Scriptures which I have already quoted, that His form was inglorious, and His generation not declared, and that for His death the rich would suffer death, and with His stripes we should be healed, and that He would be led away like a sheep; and if I had not explained that there would be two advents of His,--one in which He was pierced by you; a second, when you shall know Him whom you have pierced, and your tribes shall mourn, each tribe by itself, the women apart, and the men apart, --then I must have been speaking dubious and obscure things.



http://www.earlychristianwritings.com/t ... rypho.html

Concerning the Jewish interpretation of Zechariah 12:10 I haven't got a clue.

[semiopen2]

Religious books are full of ambiguous passages written in dead languages which were spoken by dead cultures .These passages admit to several interpretations. Zechariah 12:10 is one of those passages: the 12th Chapter in the Book of Zechariah is about a war.

This verse may be interpreted as alluding to the death of some unknown hero . It may also be interpreted as a messianic prophecy perhaps yet to be fulfilled.

If a dissident group should favour one interpretation over the one chosen by the dominant group, then a conflict will follow and ugly words will be said and uglier deeds will be done.

The Christian interpretation is one and the Jewish interpretation is another.

The Hebrew isn't that difficult, Christian translators just tend to look like imbeciles because of their agenda, which requires them to twist things.

The youtube I linked to above, shows that God is not bitching about being pierced. This is not open to debate, the Hebrew is clear.

There are at least two Christian interpretations, one where the dumber Christians think God is bitching about the piercing (which is just stupid), and the other from Revelation 1:7 (which Arnoldo posted above).

Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen.

Duvi gives John 19:34 which should probably be John 19:37

John 19:34 But one of the soldiers with a spear pierced his side, and forthwith came there out blood and water.

John 19:37 And again another scripture saith, They shall look on him whom they pierced.

Personally, I'm not sure about whether one guy is being talked about in Zechariah. It makes some sense that a lot of people were killed.

Religious Jews mostly concentrate on the Torah - who gives a shit what the verse means?

This link tell Jews what to think about it -

http://thejewishhome.org/counter/Zech12_10.pdf

It also goes into the translation issues.

Table II-1 displays the Hebrew text of Zechariah 12:10, along with five Jewish
translations and seven Christian translations. The New American Standard Bible
(NASB) shows two cross-referenced passages in the New Testament for Zechariah
12:10. These passages, shown below Table II-1, are quoted from the King James
Version (KJV).

The link suggests two possible kosher interpretations -

1. Historical Event
2. Messianic Prophecy

Personally the Messianic Prophecy gives me visions of the daughters of Jerusalem playing tambourines and makes me want to puke so I'll go with door number 1, unless I can pick door number 3 which I mentioned earlier.

[beowulf]

Religious books are full of ambiguous passages written in dead languages which were spoken by dead cultures .These passages admit to several interpretations. Zechariah 12:10 is one of those passages: the 12th Chapter in the Book of Zechariah is about a war.

This verse may be interpreted as alluding to the death of some unknown hero . It may also be interpreted as a messianic prophecy perhaps yet to be fulfilled.

If a dissident group should favour one interpretation over the one chosen by the dominant group, then a conflict will follow and ugly words will be said and uglier deeds will be done.

The Christian interpretation is one and the Jewish interpretation is another.

The Hebrew isn't that difficult, Christian translators just tend to look like imbeciles because of their agenda, which requires them to twist things.

The youtube I linked to above, shows that God is not bitching about being pierced. This is not open to debate, the Hebrew is clear.

There are at least two Christian interpretations, one where the dumber Christians think God is bitching about the piercing (which is just stupid), and the other from Revelation 1:7 (which Arnoldo posted above).

Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen.

Duvi gives John 19:34 which should probably be John 19:37

John 19:34 But one of the soldiers with a spear pierced his side, and forthwith came there out blood and water.

John 19:37 And again another scripture saith, They shall look on him whom they pierced.

Personally, I'm not sure about whether one guy is being talked about in Zechariah. It makes some sense that a lot of people were killed.

Religious Jews mostly concentrate on the Torah - who gives a shit what the verse means?

This link tell Jews what to think about it -

http://thejewishhome.org/counter/Zech12_10.pdf

It also goes into the translation issues.

Table II-1 displays the Hebrew text of Zechariah 12:10, along with five Jewish
translations and seven Christian translations. The New American Standard Bible
(NASB) shows two cross-referenced passages in the New Testament for Zechariah
12:10. These passages, shown below Table II-1, are quoted from the King James
Version (KJV).

The link suggests two possible kosher interpretations -

1. Historical Event
2. Messianic Prophecy

Personally the Messianic Prophecy gives me visions of the daughters of Jerusalem playing tambourines and makes me want to puke so I'll go with door number 1, unless I can pick door number 3 which I mentioned earlier.

The Catholic Study Bible says that 12: 10 contains an enigmatic allusion to a victim that has given rise to endless speculation. Some scholars have thought the reference was to King Josiah. Others that the figure is deliberately mysterious...

It also says at beginning of chapter 12 that the last three chapters of Zechariah are even more confusing than the previous three.