Zechariah 12:9-14

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beowulf
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Re: Zechariah 12:9-14

Post by beowulf »

arnoldo wrote:
beowulf wrote:Religious books are full of ambiguous passages written in dead languages which were spoken by dead cultures .These passages admit to several interpretations. Zechariah 12:10 is one of those passages: the 12th Chapter in the Book of Zechariah is about a war.

This verse may be interpreted as alluding to the death of some unknown hero . It may also be interpreted as a messianic prophecy perhaps yet to be fulfilled.

If a dissident group should favour one interpretation over the one chosen by the dominant group, then a conflict will follow and ugly words will be said and uglier deeds will be done.

The Christian interpretation is one and the Jewish interpretation is another.
Marcion, Valentinus and other proto-heretic christians probably interpreted this passage a little differently than proto-orthodox christians such as Justin Martyr and Irenaeus. Whereas the former group perhaps argued that Jesus only appeared to have a real earthly existence the latter group claimed that Jesus in fact was physically pierced during his crucifiction on earth. Irenaeus,
And how, again, supposing that He was not flesh, but was a man merely in appearance, could He have been crucified, and could blood and water have issued from His pierced side? What body, moreover, was it that those who buried Him consigned to the tomb? And what was that which rose again from the dead?

3. [This spiritual man] shall also judge all the followers of Valentinus, because they do indeed confess with the tongue one God the Father, and that all things derive their existence from Him, but do at the same time maintain that He who formed all things is the fruit of an apostasy or defect.

http://www.earlychristianwritings.com/t ... book4.html
Zechariah 12:10 also served the proto-orthodox christians to argue for two advents of Christ. Justin Martyr,
CHAPTER XXXII -- TRYPHO OBJECTING THAT CHRIST IS DESCRIBED AS GLORIOUS BY DANIEL, JUSTIN DISTINGUISHES TWO ADVENTS.

And when I had ceased, Trypho said, "These and such like Scriptures, sir, compel us to wait for Him who, as Son of man, receives from the Ancient of days the everlasting kingdom. But this so-called Christ of yours was dishonourable and inglorious, so much so that the last curse contained in the law of God fell on him, for he was crucified."

Then I replied to him, "If, sirs, it were not said by the Scriptures which I have already quoted, that His form was inglorious, and His generation not declared, and that for His death the rich would suffer death, and with His stripes we should be healed, and that He would be led away like a sheep; and if I had not explained that there would be two advents of His,--one in which He was pierced by you; a second, when you shall know Him whom you have pierced, and your tribes shall mourn, each tribe by itself, the women apart, and the men apart, --then I must have been speaking dubious and obscure things.



http://www.earlychristianwritings.com/t ... rypho.html
Concerning the Jewish interpretation of Zechariah 12:10 I haven't got a clue.
John 19:37 interprets Zechariah 12:10 for the Christians.

Semiopen post provides good information on the Jewish understanding of this verse
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arnoldo
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Re: Zechariah 12:9-14

Post by arnoldo »

Zechariah 13:6 appears to support the interpretation of Zechariah 12:10 refering to a person who was wounded.
And one shall say unto him, What are these wounds in thine hands? Then he shall answer, Those with which I was wounded in the house of my friends.
In what other manner can these verses be understood? Or are these translations faulty?
beowulf
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Re: Zechariah 12:9-14

Post by beowulf »

Zechariah 13:6 (6)

And if he is asked, “What are those sores on your back”? He will reply, “from being beaten in the homes of my friends”( b)

b- Presumably for making drunken scenes, cf. Prov. 23:36
6- Possibly a reference to ecstatic prophecy
Jewish Study Bible
semiopen2
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Re: Zechariah 12:9-14

Post by semiopen2 »

arnoldo wrote:Zechariah 13:6 appears to support the interpretation of Zechariah 12:10 refering to a person who was wounded.
And one shall say unto him, What are these wounds in thine hands? Then he shall answer, Those with which I was wounded in the house of my friends.
In what other manner can these verses be understood? Or are these translations faulty?
This leaves out at least one word, when one has an agenda what does a few words matter?

וְאָמַ֣ר אֵלָ֔יו מָ֧ה הַמַּכּ֛וֹת הָאֵ֖לֶּה בֵּ֣ין יָדֶ֑יךָ וְאָמַ֕ר אֲשֶׁ֥ר הֻכֵּ֖יתִי בֵּ֥ית מְאַהֲבָֽי׃
(Zec 13:6 WTT)
And if he is asked, "What are those sores on your back?" he will reply, "From being beaten in the homes of my friends." (Zec 13:6 TNK)
בֵּ֣ין יָדֶ֑יךָ (Zec 13:6 WTT)

The second word (yodekha) means "your hands" however the first word (bein) means "between".

Of course, since "beaten in the homes of my friends" is obscure from a Yoshke point of view we can ignore it.

My soul brothers also analyze this -

http://thejewishhome.org/counter/Zech13.pdf
With one notable exception, the two translations are reasonably consistent. Even
the portions that are cross-referenced in the New Testament do not contain any
gross mistranslation by the KJV translators. The exception is Zechariah 13:6, where
the KJV, among a small number of other Christian translations, falsely translates as
in the Hebrew word בּיןֵ (BEIN), between, thereby effecting a contextual change in
the question from "… What are these wounds BETWEEN thine hands? …" to "… What are
these wounds IN thine hands? …". The result of this mistranslation is that a rather
obvious Christological significance has been infused into the entire verse. It is
interesting to note that most other Christian translations have retained the more
general concept of someone with contusions on his upper body – chest & back –
which is consistent with the meaning of the Hebrew text.
The early Christian writers were not stupid enough to misunderstand this verse
It is interesting to note that Zechariah 13:6, the one verse from this chapter most
often used by Christian missionaries as a so-called "proof text", was not invoked
or alluded to in the New Testament by any of its authors. From their silence on
this contemporary Christian missionary "proof text", it appears that the authors of
the New Testament did not perceive it as having any Christological significance.
If we look at the context -
In that day, every "prophet" will be ashamed of the "visions" he had when he "prophesied." In order to deceive, he will not wear a hairy mantle, 5 and he will declare, "I am not a 'prophet'; I am a tiller of the soil; you see, I was plied with the red stuff from my youth on." 6 And if he is asked, "What are those sores on your back?" he will reply, "From being beaten in the homes of my friends." 7 O sword! Rouse yourself against My shepherd, The man in charge of My flock -- says the LORD of Hosts. Strike down the shepherd And let the flock scatter; And I will also turn My hand Against all the shepherd boys.
(Zec 13:4-7 TNK)
Sounds like God is going to continue to bitch slap the shepherd boy.
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arnoldo
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Re: Zechariah 12:9-14

Post by arnoldo »

So is it safe to assume that the following verse has nothing to do with Judas selling Jesus for thirty pieces of silver?
And I said unto them, If ye think good, give me my price; and if not, forbear. So they weighed for my price thirty pieces of silver.

13 And the Lord said unto me, Cast it unto the potter: a goodly price that I was prised at of them. And I took the thirty pieces of silver, and cast them to the potter in the house of the Lord.

Zechariah 11:12-13
beowulf
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Re: Zechariah 12:9-14

Post by beowulf »

arnoldo wrote:So is it safe to assume that the following verse has nothing to do with Judas selling Jesus for thirty pieces of silver?
And I said unto them, If ye think good, give me my price; and if not, forbear. So they weighed for my price thirty pieces of silver.

13 And the Lord said unto me, Cast it unto the potter: a goodly price that I was prised at of them. And I took the thirty pieces of silver, and cast them to the potter in the house of the Lord.

Zechariah 11:12-13
Has anyone said it did? Neither the Catholic Bible nor the New Oxford Annotated Bible says it does
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arnoldo
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Re: Zechariah 12:9-14

Post by arnoldo »

beowulf wrote:
arnoldo wrote:So is it safe to assume that the following verse has nothing to do with Judas selling Jesus for thirty pieces of silver?
And I said unto them, If ye think good, give me my price; and if not, forbear. So they weighed for my price thirty pieces of silver.

13 And the Lord said unto me, Cast it unto the potter: a goodly price that I was prised at of them. And I took the thirty pieces of silver, and cast them to the potter in the house of the Lord.

Zechariah 11:12-13
Has anyone said it did? Neither the Catholic Bible nor the New Oxford Annotated Bible says it does
The Scofield Study Bible: New American Standard Bible says it does. However, it's possible that the gospel writers were simplly alluding to Zechariah 11:12-13 and other OT "prophecies" to begin with.
beowulf
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Re: Zechariah 12:9-14

Post by beowulf »

arnoldo wrote: The Scofield Study Bible: New American Standard Bible says it does. However, it's possible that the gospel writers were simplly alluding to Zechariah 11:12-13 and other OT "prophecies" to begin with.
I had another look at the Catholic Study Bible, Second Edition. New American Bible Revised Edition. OUP 2011 and it comments on Zec 11:4-17 extensively, but neither Jesus nor Judas is mentioned.
I am not surprised to learn that others associate Zec with Judas: religion is the perfect activity for the imaginative and stupid to flourish.
Chabad has a good site and there you will see that even Rashi finds it difficult to make sense of “30 pieces of silver”.
Zec 11
http://www.chabad.org/library/bible_cdo ... rashi=true
semiopen2
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Re: Zechariah 12:9-14

Post by semiopen2 »

It is worth pointing out that some of the alleged acts of Yoshke were to fulfill the prophecies that were considered doable. I know this gets Arnoldo, in particular, ecstatic but I'm not sure it counts. For example, if there was a prophecy that the messiah would go into a convenience store and sharpen a pencil for the clerk, the fact that some guy does that knowing he will be fulfilling the prophecy is not all that impressive.

An example of this is taking the donkey(s) to Jerusalem.

http://www.errancy.com/on-how-many-donk ... jerusalem/
In all four gospels, Jesus provocatively rides into Jerusalem on a young donkey in fulfilment the prophecy in Zechariah 9:9, “Rejoice greatly, O daughter Zion! Shout aloud, O daughter Jerusalem! Lo, your king comes to you; triumphant and victorious is he, humble and riding on a donkey, on a colt, the foal of a donkey.”
In three of the four accounts of the triumphal entry, Jesus rides a single donkey. Matthew, though, apparently misunderstands the prophecy and, rather absurdly, has Jesus ride two donkeys.
Of course, there is a debate about whether this is just stupid on Mathew's part, or whether everything is all kosher somehow.
When they had come near Jerusalem and had reached Bethphage, at the Mount of Olives, Jesus sent two disciples, saying to them, ‘Go into the village ahead of you, and immediately you will find a donkey tied, and a colt with her; untie them and bring them to me. If anyone says anything to you, just say this, “The Lord needs them.” And he will send them immediately.’ This took place to fulfil what had been spoken through the prophet, saying, ‘Tell the daughter of Zion, Look your king is coming to you, humble, and mounted on a donkey, and on a colt, the foal of a donkey.’ The disciples went and did as Jesus had directed them; they brought the donkey and the colt, and put their clothes on them, and he sat on them. [Matthew 21:1-7 (NRSV)]
This is also Zechariah of course.
Rejoice greatly, Fair Zion; Raise a shout, Fair Jerusalem! Lo, your king is coming to you. He is victorious, triumphant, Yet humble, riding on an ass, On a donkey foaled by a she-ass. (Zec 9:9 TNK)
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arnoldo
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Re: Zechariah 12:9-14

Post by arnoldo »

The Sibylline Oracles also cite Zechariah although the text below is most likely a christian interpolation. . .
Daughter of Zion, holy one, rejoice, Who hast suffered many things; thy king himself Mounted upon a foal is hastening on; Behold, meek he shall come, that he may lift Our slavish yoke, so grievous to be borne Lying upon our neck, and may annul Our godless laws and bonds compulsory. Know thou thy God himself, who is God's Son; Him glorify and hold within thy heart, From thy soul love him and extol his name. Put off thy former friends and wash thyself From their blood; for he is not by thy songs Nor by thy prayers appeased, nor does he give To perishable sacrifices heed, Being imperishable; but present The holy hymn of understanding mouths And know who this one is, and thou shalt then Behold the Father. . .

http://www.earlyjewishwritings.com/sibylline.html
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