blood vs repentance

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theterminator
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blood vs repentance

Post by theterminator »

here is jewish apologist relplying to a christian apologist
Yehuda Yisrael says:
February 2, 2015 at 1:08 am
your assertion that Israel cannot atone for sin without “jesus blood” couldn’t be farther from the truth…Nowhere in the Tanach does it even hint that “jesus blood” is needed for Israel to receive forgiveness of sin from Hashem.

The prophet Daniel stood righteous before Hashem without a Temple. He didn’t need “jesus blood” or jesus in any fashion on order to stand righteous before Hashem.

Ezekiel 14:14 even if these three men–Noah, Daniel and Job–were in it, they could save only themselves by their righteousness, declares the Sovereign LORD.

You see, Daniel received forgiveness for his sins INDEPENDENT of jesus during the first exile. He did this by praying and sincerely repenting before Hashem. Daniel 6:11 states that he even did this in the face of death! Clearly, Daniel knew that his sincere repentance to Hashem brought him back to righteousness.

He was simply following the words of Jeremiah!


The context of Jeremiah 29 concerns what G-d expects of us during the exile in order to merit the rebuilding of the Holy Temple. Consider what is said in Jeremiah 29:12-14

Jeremiah 29:12. And you shall call Me and go and pray to Me, and I will hearken to you.

Jeremiah 29:13. And you will seek Me and find [Me] for you will seek Me with all your heart.

Jeremiah 29:14. And I will be found by you, says the Lord, and I will return your captivity and gather you from all the nations and from all the places where I have driven you, says the Lord, and I will return you to the place whence I exiled you.

G-d expected that the Israelites would pray to Him while in Babylon. The result of their prayers and repentance allowed them to return to the land and rebuild the Holy Temple.

This is precisely what Daniel did…

And this is precisely what Orthodox Jews do today! Hosea gives us a similar message:

Hosea 3:4. For the children of Israel shall remain for many days, having neither king, nor prince, nor sacrifice, nor pillar, nor ephod nor seraphim.

Hosea 3:5. Afterwards shall the children of Israel RETURN, and seek the Lord their God and David their king, and they shall come trembling to the Lord and to His goodness at the end of days.

How do we return to Hashem if we do not have any sacrifices? Hosea tells us in Hosea 14:2-3!

Hosea 14:2. RETURN, O Israel, to the Lord your God, for you have STUMBLED IN YOUR INIQUITY.

Clearly, the subject of the next verse explains HOW Israel is supposed to RETURN to Hashem so that OUR INIQUITIES WILL BE FORGIVEN. Of course, the next verse explains just that!

Hosea 14:3 Take WORDS with yourselves and RETURN TO THE LORD. Say, “YOU SHALL FORGIVE ALL INIQUITY and teach us [the] good [way], and let us render [for] bulls [the offering of] our lips.

Even though we have stumbled in our iniquity and have been put into exile, we still have a means of returning to Hashem though our sincere PRAYERS. We take our words and return to Hashem by saying; “FORGIVE ALL INIQUITY.” Nothing in Hosea 14:2-3 indicates that we need the blood of animals in order to atone for our sins during the exile. And most importantly, NOTHING in Hosea 14:2-3 says we need the blood of jesus!

This is why Daniel was able to stand righteous before Hashem, praying three times a day, despite the fact that he knew he would be thrown into a pit of lions if he continued to do so. Yet he continued to do so in the face of death! (Daniel 6:11)

If the Jewish people did not need “jesus blood” to merit the rebuilding of the Holy Temple during the first exile, then why would we need it now?!

Hebrews 9:22 is a false statement. It erroneously claims that “without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness of sin.”

Lets take a look at II Chronicles 30:16-20 where it is HEZEKIAH’S PRAYER and NOT BLOOD which ATONES for the sins of the people…



II Chronicles 30:16. And they stood in their station as was their custom, according to the Torah of Moses, the man of God; the priests sprinkled the blood from the hand of the Levites.



II Chronicles 30:17. For there were many among the congregation who had not consecrated themselves, and the Levites were in charge of the slaughter of the Passover sacrifices for everyone who was unclean, to make it holy for the Lord.



II Chronicles 30:18. For a multitude of the people, many from Ephraim and Manasseh, Issachar and Zebulun, had not purified themselves, for they ate the Passover sacrifice not as it is written, for **Hezekiah had PRAYED**for them, saying, **”MAY THE GOOD LORD ATONE FOR**



II Chronicles 30:19. anyone who has set his whole heart to seek God, the Lord, the God of his forefathers, though [he be] not [cleaned] according to the purity that pertains the holy things.”



II Chronicles 30:20. **And THE LORD HEARKENED TO HEZEKIAH and HEALED the people.**



The Hebrew word יְכַפֵּר is used in verse 18. It means ATONE! Here we see that in the case of Hezekiah’s passover, many of his Israelite guests DID NOT cleanse themselves with BLOOD according to the Law of Moses. In order to ATONE for the sins of his people, King Hezekiah PRAYED TO HASHEM that he should grant ATONEMENT for all those in his Kingdom who truly turned their hearts to Hashem. 

Now, to further expand on this…In verse 16, it clearly states that the Levites were in charge of sprinkling BLOOD to purify Israel as it is stated in the Torah of Moses…Now, verses 17 and 18 say that there were many in Israel WHO DID NOT PURIFY THEMSELVES WITH THE **BLOOD** AS IT IS WRITTEN IN THE TORAH! 

When someone disobeys a Law in the Torah, what do we call that? We call it a SIN! Here, there were individuals who SINNED by NOT being purified by the LEVITICAL PRIESTS OF THE HOLY TEMPLE with BLOOD! Now, according to Hebrews 9:22, the only way to ATONE FOR SIN is through BLOOD! But here, the sin that was committed was that they DIDN’T use blood for atonement…So how is this sin atoned for?

According to Hebrew 9:22, it has to be blood! But is that how this sin was atoned for? NO! Their sins were atoned for in this manner:



II Chronicles 30:18 **Hezekiah had PRAYED**for them, saying, **”MAY THE GOOD LORD ATONE FOR**



II Chronicles 30:19. anyone who has set his whole heart to seek God, the Lord, the God of his forefathers, though [he be] not [cleaned] according to the purity that pertains the holy things.”



II Chronicles 30:20. **And THE LORD HEARKENED TO HEZEKIAH and HEALED the people.**



The sin of those not purified with the blood was atoned for through PRAYER!

 Thus, Hebrews 9:22 is an inaccurate statement…

And if you are still skeptical about atonement without blood, The Hebrew word יִּרְפָּא is used in verse 20 for the word “healed.” The root of this word is רְפָּא which means heal. Amazingly, this same root is used in Isaiah 53:5
Isaiah 53:5. But he was pained because of our transgressions, crushed because of our iniquities; the chastisement of our welfare was upon him, and with his wound we were **HEALED.**

The Hebrew word נִרְפָּא is used in verse Isaiah 53:5 for the word “healed.” This shares the SAME ROOT with יִּרְפָּא as shown above. In both cases, (Isaiah 53:5 and II Chronicles 30:20) a form of the word רְפָּא is used for the word “healed.”
Clearly, there are circumstances in which atonement can be made through PRAYER, particularly when blood sacrifice is not immediately available…

II Chronicles 33:9-13 demonstrates this same principle:

II Chronicles 33:9-13: “And Manasseh led Judah and the inhabitants of Jerusalem astray to do what was evil, more than the nations whom the Lord had destroyed from before the Children of Israel. And the Lord spoke to Manasseh and to his people, but they did not listen. And the Lord brought upon them the generals of the king of Assyria, and they seized Manasseh with hooks and bound him with copper chains and brought him to Babylon. And when he was distressed, he entreated the Lord his God, and he humbled himself greatly before the God of his fathers. And he PRAYED to Him, and He accepted his prayer, and He heard his supplication and He restored him to Jerusalem to his kingdom, and Manasseh knew that the Lord was God.”

Here we see that Manasseh used PRAYER to receive forgiveness of his sins as well. We see that when blood sacrifice is not available, prayer is a valid method of atonement for sin. Also keep in mind that under Manasseh’s rule, the kingdom of Judah was more idolatrous than it had ever been in the past! Clearly, Manasseh’s prayer served as a means of forgiveness/atonement without blood sacrifice and most importantly, without jesus!

Here we have a cause and effect: King Manasseh says a prayer asking for forgiveness and G-d accepts his prayer and restores him as King of Judah. No blood sacrifice was used to atone for King Manasseh as there is nothing in the text that would indicate such.

This proves that Hebrews 9:22 is a false statement. Blood sacrifice is not the only way to atone for sin. Your jesus has nothing to with our atonement.

Shalom
why not just admit that the later writers were against the blood sacrifices ?
.
iskander
Posts: 2091
Joined: Thu Aug 13, 2015 12:38 pm

Re: blood vs repentance

Post by iskander »

theterminator wrote:here is jewish apologist relplying to a christian apologist
Yehuda Yisrael says:
February 2, 2015 at 1:08 am
your assertion that Israel cannot atone for sin without “jesus blood” couldn’t be farther from the truth…Nowhere in the Tanach does it even hint that “jesus blood” is needed for Israel to receive forgiveness of sin from Hashem.

The prophet Daniel stood righteous before Hashem without a Temple. He didn’t need “jesus blood” or jesus in any fashion on order to stand righteous before Hashem.

Ezekiel 14:14 even if these three men–Noah, Daniel and Job–were in it, they could save only themselves by their righteousness, declares the Sovereign LORD.

You see, Daniel received forgiveness for his sins INDEPENDENT of jesus during the first exile. He did this by praying and sincerely repenting before Hashem. Daniel 6:11 states that he even did this in the face of death! Clearly, Daniel knew that his sincere repentance to Hashem brought him back to righteousness.

He was simply following the words of Jeremiah!


The context of Jeremiah 29 concerns what G-d expects of us during the exile in order to merit the rebuilding of the Holy Temple. Consider what is said in Jeremiah 29:12-14

Jeremiah 29:12. And you shall call Me and go and pray to Me, and I will hearken to you.

Jeremiah 29:13. And you will seek Me and find [Me] for you will seek Me with all your heart.

Jeremiah 29:14. And I will be found by you, says the Lord, and I will return your captivity and gather you from all the nations and from all the places where I have driven you, says the Lord, and I will return you to the place whence I exiled you.

G-d expected that the Israelites would pray to Him while in Babylon. The result of their prayers and repentance allowed them to return to the land and rebuild the Holy Temple.

This is precisely what Daniel did…

And this is precisely what Orthodox Jews do today! Hosea gives us a similar message:

Hosea 3:4. For the children of Israel shall remain for many days, having neither king, nor prince, nor sacrifice, nor pillar, nor ephod nor seraphim.

Hosea 3:5. Afterwards shall the children of Israel RETURN, and seek the Lord their God and David their king, and they shall come trembling to the Lord and to His goodness at the end of days.

How do we return to Hashem if we do not have any sacrifices? Hosea tells us in Hosea 14:2-3!

Hosea 14:2. RETURN, O Israel, to the Lord your God, for you have STUMBLED IN YOUR INIQUITY.

Clearly, the subject of the next verse explains HOW Israel is supposed to RETURN to Hashem so that OUR INIQUITIES WILL BE FORGIVEN. Of course, the next verse explains just that!

Hosea 14:3 Take WORDS with yourselves and RETURN TO THE LORD. Say, “YOU SHALL FORGIVE ALL INIQUITY and teach us [the] good [way], and let us render [for] bulls [the offering of] our lips.

Even though we have stumbled in our iniquity and have been put into exile, we still have a means of returning to Hashem though our sincere PRAYERS. We take our words and return to Hashem by saying; “FORGIVE ALL INIQUITY.” Nothing in Hosea 14:2-3 indicates that we need the blood of animals in order to atone for our sins during the exile. And most importantly, NOTHING in Hosea 14:2-3 says we need the blood of jesus!

This is why Daniel was able to stand righteous before Hashem, praying three times a day, despite the fact that he knew he would be thrown into a pit of lions if he continued to do so. Yet he continued to do so in the face of death! (Daniel 6:11)

If the Jewish people did not need “jesus blood” to merit the rebuilding of the Holy Temple during the first exile, then why would we need it now?!

Hebrews 9:22 is a false statement. It erroneously claims that “without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness of sin.”

Lets take a look at II Chronicles 30:16-20 where it is HEZEKIAH’S PRAYER and NOT BLOOD which ATONES for the sins of the people…



II Chronicles 30:16. And they stood in their station as was their custom, according to the Torah of Moses, the man of God; the priests sprinkled the blood from the hand of the Levites.



II Chronicles 30:17. For there were many among the congregation who had not consecrated themselves, and the Levites were in charge of the slaughter of the Passover sacrifices for everyone who was unclean, to make it holy for the Lord.



II Chronicles 30:18. For a multitude of the people, many from Ephraim and Manasseh, Issachar and Zebulun, had not purified themselves, for they ate the Passover sacrifice not as it is written, for **Hezekiah had PRAYED**for them, saying, **”MAY THE GOOD LORD ATONE FOR**



II Chronicles 30:19. anyone who has set his whole heart to seek God, the Lord, the God of his forefathers, though [he be] not [cleaned] according to the purity that pertains the holy things.”



II Chronicles 30:20. **And THE LORD HEARKENED TO HEZEKIAH and HEALED the people.**



The Hebrew word יְכַפֵּר is used in verse 18. It means ATONE! Here we see that in the case of Hezekiah’s passover, many of his Israelite guests DID NOT cleanse themselves with BLOOD according to the Law of Moses. In order to ATONE for the sins of his people, King Hezekiah PRAYED TO HASHEM that he should grant ATONEMENT for all those in his Kingdom who truly turned their hearts to Hashem. 

Now, to further expand on this…In verse 16, it clearly states that the Levites were in charge of sprinkling BLOOD to purify Israel as it is stated in the Torah of Moses…Now, verses 17 and 18 say that there were many in Israel WHO DID NOT PURIFY THEMSELVES WITH THE **BLOOD** AS IT IS WRITTEN IN THE TORAH! 

When someone disobeys a Law in the Torah, what do we call that? We call it a SIN! Here, there were individuals who SINNED by NOT being purified by the LEVITICAL PRIESTS OF THE HOLY TEMPLE with BLOOD! Now, according to Hebrews 9:22, the only way to ATONE FOR SIN is through BLOOD! But here, the sin that was committed was that they DIDN’T use blood for atonement…So how is this sin atoned for?

According to Hebrew 9:22, it has to be blood! But is that how this sin was atoned for? NO! Their sins were atoned for in this manner:



II Chronicles 30:18 **Hezekiah had PRAYED**for them, saying, **”MAY THE GOOD LORD ATONE FOR**



II Chronicles 30:19. anyone who has set his whole heart to seek God, the Lord, the God of his forefathers, though [he be] not [cleaned] according to the purity that pertains the holy things.”



II Chronicles 30:20. **And THE LORD HEARKENED TO HEZEKIAH and HEALED the people.**



The sin of those not purified with the blood was atoned for through PRAYER!

 Thus, Hebrews 9:22 is an inaccurate statement…

And if you are still skeptical about atonement without blood, The Hebrew word יִּרְפָּא is used in verse 20 for the word “healed.” The root of this word is רְפָּא which means heal. Amazingly, this same root is used in Isaiah 53:5
Isaiah 53:5. But he was pained because of our transgressions, crushed because of our iniquities; the chastisement of our welfare was upon him, and with his wound we were **HEALED.**

The Hebrew word נִרְפָּא is used in verse Isaiah 53:5 for the word “healed.” This shares the SAME ROOT with יִּרְפָּא as shown above. In both cases, (Isaiah 53:5 and II Chronicles 30:20) a form of the word רְפָּא is used for the word “healed.”
Clearly, there are circumstances in which atonement can be made through PRAYER, particularly when blood sacrifice is not immediately available…

II Chronicles 33:9-13 demonstrates this same principle:

II Chronicles 33:9-13: “And Manasseh led Judah and the inhabitants of Jerusalem astray to do what was evil, more than the nations whom the Lord had destroyed from before the Children of Israel. And the Lord spoke to Manasseh and to his people, but they did not listen. And the Lord brought upon them the generals of the king of Assyria, and they seized Manasseh with hooks and bound him with copper chains and brought him to Babylon. And when he was distressed, he entreated the Lord his God, and he humbled himself greatly before the God of his fathers. And he PRAYED to Him, and He accepted his prayer, and He heard his supplication and He restored him to Jerusalem to his kingdom, and Manasseh knew that the Lord was God.”

Here we see that Manasseh used PRAYER to receive forgiveness of his sins as well. We see that when blood sacrifice is not available, prayer is a valid method of atonement for sin. Also keep in mind that under Manasseh’s rule, the kingdom of Judah was more idolatrous than it had ever been in the past! Clearly, Manasseh’s prayer served as a means of forgiveness/atonement without blood sacrifice and most importantly, without jesus!

Here we have a cause and effect: King Manasseh says a prayer asking for forgiveness and G-d accepts his prayer and restores him as King of Judah. No blood sacrifice was used to atone for King Manasseh as there is nothing in the text that would indicate such.

This proves that Hebrews 9:22 is a false statement. Blood sacrifice is not the only way to atone for sin. Your jesus has nothing to with our atonement.

Shalom
why not just admit that the later writers were against the blood sacrifices ?
" Indeed, Maimonides himself argued that these laws are relics from an early phase of Israelite civilization,[1] confirming our suspicions: these rules are primitive
“No Expiation without Blood” – The Meaning of kipper
The use of blood in the sin offering provides an illuminating illustration of the role of metaphoric thinking in biblical ritual. Though all of the biblical offerings involve some form of blood manipulation, the sin offering’s distinguishing characteristic is the smearing of blood on the horns of the altar (for offerings of individuals) and blood sprinkling in the sanctuary (for collective offerings).[10] The results of these sin offerings are stated in a fixed formula which is repeated throughout Leviticus 4: “the priest shall expiate (kipper) for him/ them and he/ they shall be forgiven” (vv. 20, 26, 31, 35).[11]

Recognizing that these blood rites are the main step in achieving expiation (expressed by the verb kipper) and forgiveness, the Rabbis coined the formula: “There is no expiation without blood” [12] ( אין כפרה אלא בדם ). This association raises two interrelated questions: What exactly is the meaning of kipper, and why is it related to blood? In modern research, these “bloody” questions have provoked a startling amount of ink -shed. "
Expiating with Blood
http://thetorah.com/expiating-with-
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rakovsky
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Re: blood vs repentance

Post by rakovsky »

theterminator wrote:here is jewish apologist relplying to a christian apologist
This is a good thread. May I ask, are questions of interpretations of Judaism and the Tanakh for this section or the Christian section when the issues are debated between the two religions?
Or maybe it does not matter?

To answer your question, maybe one factor was that in early bronze age societies, ritual blood sacrifice was very common, along with some version of atonement, satisfaction or "covering" justifications. So the Mayans performed human sacrifice, and the olmecs probably were killing infants, to please or satisfy their gods. But the Egyptians and Hebrews stopped these kinds of human sacrifices of infants and replaced it with circumcision, ie the infant already she'd blood, so the impulse for it decreased. Abraham had the incident with the binding of Isaac and using rams instead of the young Isaac, and this same Abraham introduced circumcision.

So I am open to there being some kind of contradictions or exceptions, namely that in the foundational bronze age Israelite texts like the torah, atonement sacrifice played a central ideological role, but occasionally , especially later, God could chose to forgive some peoples' sins without sacrifice.


Yehuda Yisrael says:
February 2, 2015 at 1:08 am
your assertion that Israel cannot atone for sin without “jesus blood” couldn’t be farther from the truth…Nowhere in the Tanach does it even hint that “jesus blood” is needed for Israel to receive forgiveness of sin from Hashem.

The prophet Daniel stood righteous before Hashem without a Temple. He didn’t need “jesus blood” or jesus in any fashion on order to stand righteous before Hashem.

Ezekiel 14:14 even if these three men–Noah, Daniel and Job–were in it, they could save only themselves by their righteousness, declares the Sovereign LORD.

You see, Daniel received forgiveness for his sins INDEPENDENT of jesus during the first exile. He did this by praying and sincerely repenting before Hashem. Daniel 6:11 states that he even did this in the face of death! Clearly, Daniel knew that his sincere repentance to Hashem brought him back to righteousness.

He was simply following the words of Jeremiah!


The context of Jeremiah 29 concerns what G-d expects of us during the exile in order to merit the rebuilding of the Holy Temple. Consider what is said in Jeremiah 29:12-14

Jeremiah 29:12. And you shall call Me and go and pray to Me, and I will hearken to you.

Jeremiah 29:13. And you will seek Me and find [Me] for you will seek Me with all your heart.

Jeremiah 29:14. And I will be found by you, says the Lord, and I will return your captivity and gather you from all the nations and from all the places where I have driven you, says the Lord, and I will return you to the place whence I exiled you.

G-d expected that the Israelites would pray to Him while in Babylon. The result of their prayers and repentance allowed them to return to the land and rebuild the Holy Temple.

This is precisely what Daniel did…
One thing that would be helpful is if the writer here had backed up what he was saying by quoting any passages saying not just that Daniel was righteous or good or a prophet, but also had his sins "forgiven" or "removed", because that is the writer's claim. The writer is claiming not just that Daniel believed in God or was a good person, but got his sins forgiven and cleansed no less than if there was a temple.

Secondly, the examples of Daniel and the return from exile does not show that substitutionary atonement occurred of the same value as if there was a temple. The writer doesn't correctly use the concept of substiution. The temple sacrifice works by using blood sacrifice to remove guilt and punishment for sin.

But in the case of Daniel and the exile, the Israelites and Daniel themselves underwent the punishment by the exile. So there was actually no substitution that occurred like there would be during a temple sacrifice.

So the examples given do not actually void or conflict with the concept of the necessity of atonement sacrifice that the Christian apologists see in the Torah, because in the examples, no substitution atonement and no penal forgiveness occurred.

God drove the Israelites into exile as punishment for sin. So the ending of that exile cannot count as a negation of the principle of atonement, as in the exile, the Israelites atoned for their own sin.

My research on the prophecies of the Messiah's resurrection: http://rakovskii.livejournal.com
Clive
Posts: 1197
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Re: blood vs repentance

Post by Clive »

Another way of looking at blood :-)

http://www.policy-network.net/publicati ... px?ID=6839

Rm titmuss gift relationship
"We cannot slaughter each other out of the human impasse"
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