Chanukah and Maccabees (I)

[A_Nony_Mouse]

You have no position so what is left for anyone to say? I can't take nonsense seriously

Fine with me. I merely pointed out your response to my posts was out of proportion to and of a different character than one would expect from your stated opinion of my posts. When I have a similar opinion of posters I encourage them for the entertainment value. They do a much better job discrediting themselves than I ever could. But as I read the subtext of your posts you apparently want me to stop making a fool of myself. Why would you care?

[DCHindley]

Is there any problem with Hellenism in 2 Macc 4:13? If not, why the problem with Judaism

To repeat:

1. The word "Judaism" is unknown to Philo and Josephus. Don't handwave that away as merely an argument from silence. That is a major omission that demands a reasonable explanation.

2. It first appears in Christian texts, written long after the supposed pre-common era date of 2 Macc

3. It is used exclusively by Christians.[/quote][/quote]

Using BibleWorks, which has its quirks to be sure, I get the following results:

BOOK	Ἰουδαῖος	Ἰουδαϊσμός	Ιουδαϊκῆς	Ἰουδαΐζω	Ιουδαία	Totals
	Jewish	Jewish way	Jewish	to live as a Jew	Judaea
OT	72	0	0	1	45	118
APOC	139	5	1	0	67	212
NT	195	2	1	1	40	239
IGN	0	2	0	1	0	3
JOS	1,241	0	63	0	0	1,304
EUS	?	1	?	?	?	1
PHI	101	0	11	0	0	112
TOTALS	1,748	10	76	3	152	1,989

The word Ἰουδαῖος (Jewish) preferred by the LXX (ignoring the fact that they were not translated by a single authority but represent a patchwork of translations made at different periods), including 2 Maccabees (59 times), the NT books (ditto), Philo and especially Josephus. Joseph and Philo occasionally use Ιουδαϊκῆς (also, Jewish), but so does 2 Maccabees once.

The word that you seem to be referring to, Ἰουδαϊσμός (Jewish way), is used 4 times in 2 Maccabees, once in 4 Maccabees, and only twice in the entire NT, in Galatians 1:13-14. It is found twice in the Ignatian letters, and once, yes once, in Eusebius. The fact that this word is used a total of five times in Christian literature when the usual term was used 195 times in the NT (I do not think that the program searched Eusebius) does NOT seem to make a very strong case for 2 Maccabees being "Christian."

DCH

[A_Nony_Mouse]

In any event the issue I raised is still unaddressed so let me restate it.

What is the oldest evidence of the use of a nine candle holder? What is the oldest mention of this festival being celebrated post Maccabes?

The same issues are raised about Christian festivals. I see no difference here. But the subtext I read is like claiming Peter and Paul decorated a fir tree.

[semiopen2]

In any event the issue I raised is still unaddressed so let me restate it.

What is the oldest evidence of the use of a nine candle holder? What is the oldest mention of this festival being celebrated post Maccabes?

The same issues are raised about Christian festivals. I see no difference here. But the subtext I read is like claiming Peter and Paul decorated a fir tree.

This was discussed at the beginning of the thread. It is also discussed here http://frumheretic.blogspot.com/2008/12 ... nukah.html.

Reality check: Any regular reader of Jewish skepti-blogs will be aware of the true story by now (as well as most of the other points in this post), as elaborated in Maccabees I and II. Before recapping, let's look at a time line.
Maccabean revolt: 167 BCE
Maccabean victory and re-dedication of the Temple: 164 BCE
Writing of I Maccabees: ca. 134-63 BCE
Writing of II Maccabees: ca. 124-63 BCE
Philo of Alexandria: 20 BCE - 50 CE
Josephus: ca. 37 – 100 CE
Gospel of John: ca 70 - 85 CE or later
Talmud: ca 500 CE

NONE of the early historical sources through Josephus mention the miracle of oil.

The Frum heretic is a little conservative in the dates but note Philo and and Josephus.

As we discussed above, the oil miracle was apparently added after the fact (or not).

I don't understand what you are driving at about the menorah, I'm not clear on when the nine branch menorah (Hanukkiyah) started. It is peculiar that there isn't more information on the subject.

There is a dispute between Hillel and Shammai in the Babylonian Talmud Shabbat 21b

http://www.come-and-hear.com/shabbath/shabbath_21.html

Our Rabbis taught: The precept of Hanukkah [demands] one light for a man and his household;10 the zealous [kindle] a light for each member [of the household]; and the extremely zealous, — Beth Shammai maintain: On the first day eight lights are lit and thereafter they are gradually reduced;11 but Beth Hillel say: On the first day one is lit and thereafter they are progressively increased.12 'Ulla said: In the West [Palestine] two amoraim,13 R. Jose b. Abin and R. Jose b. Zebida, differ therein: one maintains, The reason of Beth Shammai is that it shall correspond to the days still to come,14 and that of Beth Hillel is that it shall correspond to the days that are gone; but another maintains: Beth Shammai's reason is that it shall correspond to the bullocks of the Festival;15 whilst Beth Hillel's reason is that we promote in [matters of] sanctity but do not reduce.
Rabbah b. Bar Hana said: There were two old men16 in Sidon:17 one did as Beth Shammai and the other as Beth Hillel: the former gave the reason of his action that it should correspond to the bullocks of the Festival, while the latter stated his reason because we promote in [matters of] sanctity but do not reduce.
Our Rabbis taught: It is incumbent to place the Hanukkah lamp by the door of one's house on the outside;18 if one dwells in an upper chamber, he places it at the window nearest the street. But in times of danger19 it is sufficient to place it on the table. Raba said: Another lamp is required for its light to be used;20 yet if there is a blazing fire it is unnecessary. But in the case of an important person,21 even if there is a blazing fire another lamp is required.

By reading this one might think that the menorah custom was established by Talmudic times or about 500 CE according to Frum heretic. It is not clear to me that they are talking about a menorah as we know it. Also the phrase

Our Rabbis taught

is associated with the Stammaim (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amoraim#Stammaim) which might make it several hundred years later.

If I may be permitted a short editorial comment; other people here have defended advancing opinions without quoting sources who I have disagreed with. It has been amusing to see someone like yourself added to this work without a rope group. It is remarkable that all the assertions that you make really do nothing special to advance the cause of antisemitism, you'd be better off sticking to established research - of course that would mean more preparation on your part.

[semiopen2]

The link to Frum Heretic above shows him mentioning the Megillat_Taanit.

There is a commentary which was added later.

http://www.myjewishlearning.com/holiday ... ride.shtml

An altogether different story appears in a commentary to Megillat Taanit, a list of festivals and fasts that was compiled in the Second Temple period. The commentary, called the Scholion, was composed in the talmudic period but edited sometime between the 9th and 11th centuries. It reports that the Greeks sent officials to the Land of Israel for the purpose of raping brides before their marriage, a legal ordinance also called jus primae noctis in medieval legal documents or "right of the first night," in modern scholarship.

The rabbis who authored the Scholion report that the Jews, out of fear, responded to this Greek policy by abstaining from marriage, and then by engineering underground weddings. But the upcoming nuptials of the daughter of the high priest prove too prominent to conceal. When a Greek official comes to rape the maiden, the Maccabees defend their sister's honor. This is what sparks the rebellion.

As Ms Salzberg notes it was edited in the Geonim or Rishonim periods.

One has to wonder if the Greek officials used pig fat to lubricate the Jewish virgins.

[A_Nony_Mouse]

In any event the issue I raised is still unaddressed so let me restate it.

What is the oldest evidence of the use of a nine candle holder? What is the oldest mention of this festival being celebrated post Maccabes?

The same issues are raised about Christian festivals. I see no difference here. But the subtext I read is like claiming Peter and Paul decorated a fir tree.

This was discussed at the beginning of the thread. It is also discussed here http://frumheretic.blogspot.com/2008/12 ... nukah.html.

Perhaps but I was "reminded" and I concurred that "we" do not discuss things by URL.

Reality check: Any regular reader of Jewish skepti-blogs will be aware of the true story by now (as well as most of the other points in this post), as elaborated in Maccabees I and II. Before recapping, let's look at a time line.
Maccabean revolt: 167 BCE
Maccabean victory and re-dedication of the Temple: 164 BCE
Writing of I Maccabees: ca. 134-63 BCE
Writing of II Maccabees: ca. 124-63 BCE
Philo of Alexandria: 20 BCE - 50 CE
Josephus: ca. 37 – 100 CE
Gospel of John: ca 70 - 85 CE or later
Talmud: ca 500 CE

NONE of the early historical sources through Josephus mention the miracle of oil.

The Frum heretic is a little conservative in the dates but note Philo and and Josephus.

As we discussed above, the oil miracle was apparently added after the fact (or not).

I don't understand what you are driving at about the menorah, I'm not clear on when the nine branch menorah (Hanukkiyah) started. It is peculiar that there isn't more information on the subject.

There is a dispute between Hillel and Shammai in the Babylonian Talmud Shabbat 21b

http://www.come-and-hear.com/shabbath/shabbath_21.html

Our Rabbis taught: The precept of Hanukkah [demands] one light for a man and his household;10 the zealous [kindle] a light for each member [of the household]; and the extremely zealous, — Beth Shammai maintain: On the first day eight lights are lit and thereafter they are gradually reduced;11 but Beth Hillel say: On the first day one is lit and thereafter they are progressively increased.12 'Ulla said: In the West [Palestine] two amoraim,13 R. Jose b. Abin and R. Jose b. Zebida, differ therein: one maintains, The reason of Beth Shammai is that it shall correspond to the days still to come,14 and that of Beth Hillel is that it shall correspond to the days that are gone; but another maintains: Beth Shammai's reason is that it shall correspond to the bullocks of the Festival;15 whilst Beth Hillel's reason is that we promote in [matters of] sanctity but do not reduce.
Rabbah b. Bar Hana said: There were two old men16 in Sidon:17 one did as Beth Shammai and the other as Beth Hillel: the former gave the reason of his action that it should correspond to the bullocks of the Festival, while the latter stated his reason because we promote in [matters of] sanctity but do not reduce.
Our Rabbis taught: It is incumbent to place the Hanukkah lamp by the door of one's house on the outside;18 if one dwells in an upper chamber, he places it at the window nearest the street. But in times of danger19 it is sufficient to place it on the table. Raba said: Another lamp is required for its light to be used;20 yet if there is a blazing fire it is unnecessary. But in the case of an important person,21 even if there is a blazing fire another lamp is required.

By reading this one might think that the menorah custom was established by Talmudic times or about 500 CE according to Frum heretic. It is not clear to me that they are talking about a menorah as we know it. Also the phrase

Our Rabbis taught

is associated with the Stammaim (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amoraim#Stammaim) which might make it several hundred years later.

If I may be permitted a short editorial comment; other people here have defended advancing opinions without quoting sources who I have disagreed with. It has been amusing to see someone like yourself added to this work without a rope group. It is remarkable that all the assertions that you make really do nothing special to advance the cause of antisemitism, you'd be better off sticking to established research - of course that would mean more preparation on your part.

Pardon but there is matter of simple logic. There is the subject and then there is what people say about the subject. I prefer to discuss the subject. Should I ever succumb to the insanity of an academic degree in this matter I will be required to learn what other people have said about the subject. Those are two different things.

I would assume if people wanted to what people have said about Hannukah that would be in the subject line of the thread. Discussions which are nothing but dueling experts bore me to tears.

[A_Nony_Mouse]

The link to Frum Heretic above shows him mentioning the Megillat_Taanit.

There is a commentary which was added later.

http://www.myjewishlearning.com/holiday ... ride.shtml

An altogether different story appears in a commentary to Megillat Taanit, a list of festivals and fasts that was compiled in the Second Temple period. The commentary, called the Scholion, was composed in the talmudic period but edited sometime between the 9th and 11th centuries. It reports that the Greeks sent officials to the Land of Israel for the purpose of raping brides before their marriage, a legal ordinance also called jus primae noctis in medieval legal documents or "right of the first night," in modern scholarship.

The rabbis who authored the Scholion report that the Jews, out of fear, responded to this Greek policy by abstaining from marriage, and then by engineering underground weddings. But the upcoming nuptials of the daughter of the high priest prove too prominent to conceal. When a Greek official comes to rape the maiden, the Maccabees defend their sister's honor. This is what sparks the rebellion.

As Ms Salzberg notes it was edited in the Geonim or Rishonim periods.

One has to wonder if the Greek officials used pig fat to lubricate the Jewish virgins.

I have never heard of Primae Noctis in ancient times thus obviously never any such suggestion that Greeks did it. One has to ask why the Greeks waiting until medieval times to retroactively invent the custom and keep it a secret to all but certain Jewish writers who retroactively discovered it. Sarcastic enough or did I miss the mark?

The story is a lie by inspection. I miss your point.

BTW: Olive oil was the preferred vaginal lubricant in those days.

[Blood]

Using BibleWorks, which has its quirks to be sure, I get the following results:

BOOK	Ἰουδαῖος	Ἰουδαϊσμός	Ιουδαϊκῆς	Ἰουδαΐζω	Ιουδαία	Totals
	Jewish	Jewish way	Jewish	to live as a Jew	Judaea
OT	72	0	0	1	45	118
APOC	139	5	1	0	67	212
NT	195	2	1	1	40	239
IGN	0	2	0	1	0	3
JOS	1,241	0	63	0	0	1,304
EUS	?	1	?	?	?	1
PHI	101	0	11	0	0	112
TOTALS	1,748	10	76	3	152	1,989

The word Ἰουδαῖος (Jewish) preferred by the LXX (ignoring the fact that they were not translated by a single authority but represent a patchwork of translations made at different periods), including 2 Maccabees (59 times), the NT books (ditto), Philo and especially Josephus. Joseph and Philo occasionally use Ιουδαϊκῆς (also, Jewish), but so does 2 Maccabees once.

The word that you seem to be referring to, Ἰουδαϊσμός (Jewish way), is used 4 times in 2 Maccabees, once in 4 Maccabees, and only twice in the entire NT, in Galatians 1:13-14. It is found twice in the Ignatian letters, and once, yes once, in Eusebius. The fact that this word is used a total of five times in Christian literature when the usual term was used 195 times in the NT (I do not think that the program searched Eusebius) does NOT seem to make a very strong case for 2 Maccabees being "Christian."

DCH

Quoting myself:

Singularly, none of this would be that important. It is the cumulative effect that casts serious doubt on the scholarly consensus.

[Mental flatliner]

It is interesting how the story of the institution of the holiday of Chanukah is expressed in the Books of Maccabees, the Talmud and the Scroll of Antiochus.
Neither 1 Maccabees or 2 Maccabees make any mention of the menorah lights lasting for eight days on an amount of oil sufficient for one day. In fact they give no actual reason for the institution of the eight day holiday for all time.

Indeed, there were a number of times that the Temple was recovered and purified during earlier times in the period of the prophets and First Temple, but no holiday was ever instituted for all time in those periods, such as when Shishak came to Jerusalem, when Menasseh the king repented after defiling the Temple, and several other occasions. Even when the two temples were actually built no permanent holiday was ever instituted to commemorate these monumental occasions. The authors of the Books of Maccabees give no reason at all why the events of Chanukah should be so different than any other event in history to warrant a holiday prescribed AFTER the days of the prophets.

48 And they built up the holy places, and the things that were within the temple: and they sanctified the temple, and the courts.
49 And they made new holy vessels, and brought in the candlestick, and the altar of incense, and the table into the temple.
50 And they put incense upon the altar, and lighted up the lamps that were upon the candlestick, and they gave light in the temple.
51 And they set the loaves upon the table, and hung up the veils, and finished all the works that they had begun to make.
52 And they arose before the morning on the five and twentieth day of the ninth month (which is the month of Casleu) in the hundred and forty-eighth year.
53 And they offered sacrifice according to the law upon the new altar of holocausts which they had made.
54 According to the time, and according to the day wherein the heathens had defiled it, in the same was it dedicated anew with canticles, and harps, and lutes, and cymbals.
55 And all the people fell upon their faces, and adored, and blessed up to heaven, him that had prospered them.
56 And they kept the dedication of the altar eight days, and they offered holocausts with joy, and sacrifices of salvation, and of praise.
57 And they adorned the front of the temple with crowns of gold, and escutcheons, and they renewed the gates, and the chambers, and hanged doors upon them.

Second Maccabees:
When Maccabeus and his companions, under the Lord’s leadership, had recovered the temple and the city,
2 they destroyed the altars erected by the foreigners in the marketplace and the sacred shrines.
3 After purifying the temple, they made another altar. Then, with fire struck from flint, they offered sacrifice for the first time in two years,* burned incense, and lighted lamps. They also set out the showbread.
4 When they had done this, they prostrated themselves and begged the Lord that they might never again fall into such misfortunes, and that if they should sin at any time, he might chastise them with moderation and not hand them over to blasphemous and barbarous Gentiles.
5 On the anniversary of the day on which the temple had been profaned by the foreigners, that is, the twenty-fifth of the same month Kislev, the purification of the temple took place.
6 The Jews celebrated joyfully for eight days as on the feast of Booths, remembering how, a little while before, they had spent the feast of Booths living like wild animals in the mountains and in caves.
7 Carrying rods entwined with leaves,* beautiful branches and palms, they sang hymns of grateful praise to him who had successfully brought about the purification of his own place.
8 By public decree and vote they prescribed that the whole Jewish nation should celebrate these days every year.
9 Such was the end of Antiochus surnamed Epiphanes.

Scroll of Antiochus:
The Hasmoneans entered the Sanctuary, rebuilt the gates, closed the breaches, and cleansed the Temple court from the slain and the impurities. They looked for pure olive oil to light the Menorah, and found only one bottle with the seal of the High Priest so that they were sure of its purity. Though its quantity seemed sufficient only for one day's lighting, it lasted for eight days owing to the blessing of the G-d of heaven who had established His Name there. Hence, the Hasmoneans and all the Jews alike instituted these eight days as a time of feasting and rejoicing, like any festival prescribed in the Torah, and of kindling lights to commemorate the victories G-d had given them. Mourning and fasting are forbidden on Chanukah, except in the case of an individual's vow which must be discharged. Nevertheless, the Hasmoneans did not prohibit work on this holiday.
From that time on the Greek government was stripped of its renown. The Hasmoneans and their descendants ruled for two hundred and six years, until the destruction of the Temple
And so the Jews everywhere observe this festival for eight days, beginning on the twenty-fifth of Kislev. These days, instituted by Priest, Levites and Sages of Temple times, shall be celebrated by their descendants forever.

Tractate Shabbat 21:
What is the reason for Hanukkah? For our Rabbis taught: On the twenty-fifth of Kislev commence the days of Hanukkah, which are eight on which a lamentation for the dead and fasting are forbidden. For when the Greeks entered the Temple, they defiled all the oils therein, and when the Hasmonean dynasty prevailed against and defeated them, they made search and found only one cruse of oil which lay with the seal of the High Priest, but which contained sufficient for one day's lighting only; yet a miracle was wrought therein and they lit the lamp therewith for eight days. The following year these days were appointed a Festival with the recital of Hallel and thanksgiving

Wouldn't the holiday stem from the event (the original dedication of the Maccabean temple), and the practice of the holiday come from Hagadah?

[semiopen]

Wouldn't the holiday stem from the event (the original dedication of the Maccabean temple), and the practice of the holiday come from Hagadah?

I think it is clear that it was the dedication of the temple.

Earlier in this thread I had some discussion with Duvi over his use of Haggadah versus Aggadah. Technically these are sort of the same thing, but Haggadah is more commonly understood as the book we read at the Passover seder.

When we talk about Aggadah we look at Halakha -

Halakha (Hebrew: הֲלָכָה, Sephardic: [halaˈχa]; also transliterated as Halacha or Halachah) or Halocho (Ashkenazic: [haˈloχo]) is the collective body of Jewish religious laws derived from the Written and Oral Torah. It includes the 613 mitzvot ("commandments"), subsequent talmudic and rabbinic law and the customs and traditions compiled in the Shulchan Aruch (literally "Set Table", but more commonly known as the "Code of Jewish Law").

Halakhah examples might be circumcision, eating kosher, etc.

Aggadah is mostly legends and stories.

We play a little game today that these stories (many of which are outrageous) do not have to be taken literally but that's sort of recent.

Your statement is more or less meaningless. Neither aspect of Chanukah is Halakha. The idea of the miracle oil seems to be much later.

The miracle oil is a cover story for the holiday being anti-Greek. It's absurd to consider a nice Greek Jewish boy like Josephus actually celebrating something like this.