Plato and the Creation of the Hebrew Bible

Discussion about the Hebrew Bible, Septuagint, pseudepigrapha, Philo, Josephus, Talmud, Dead Sea Scrolls, archaeology, etc.
Solstice
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Re: Plato and the Creation of the Hebrew Bible

Post by Solstice »

There was never any discussion thread here specifically dedicated to Gmirkin's 2006 book (Berossus and Genesis, Exodus and Manetho) so hopefully this sequel generates more discussion. I'll just humbly put up a post of relevant links here at least as a placeholder.

Here's the Amazon link which includes some reviews, particularly Greg Doudna (who's also known for helping to debunk the Obama birth controversy) who helped with the book and writes a good review (and a good counter-review to an overly critical 1 star review)

https://www.amazon.com/Berossus-Genesis ... 0567025926

The most recent review is from Oct 2015:
https://www.amazon.com/gp/customer-revi ... 0567025926

Here's the book on Google books:

https://books.google.com/books?id=noKI6 ... &q&f=false

And here it is on Scribd:

https://www.scribd.com/document/5968120 ... -E-Gmirkin

As already posted above, here's review's from 2007 and 2008, as well as Vridar's blog posts from late 2012/early 2013:

https://scholarship.rice.edu/bitstream/ ... sequence=1
https://ejournals.library.ualberta.ca/i ... /7274/5980
http://vridar.org/category/book-reviews ... d-genesis/


Here's the new book (preview?) on Google books:

https://books.google.com/books?id=-UTUD ... &q&f=false
Solstice
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Re: Plato and the Creation of the Hebrew Bible

Post by Solstice »

Oh heck, here's a cut & paste of the most recent review of Gmirkins Berossus & Manetho book dated 10/2015 linked above. It's by Laura Knight-Jadczyk and it's somewhat thorough. She even takes the position that it may have been written in Greek first THEN translated to Hebrew:

1st edit: (Referring to Andrew Criddle's post below) Instead of posting the text of the review, here's just the link to it: https://www.amazon.com/gp/customer-revi ... 0567025926

2nd edit: As Clive added later it's possible that someone may hold very strange beliefs, yet still be able to write a succinct clear review.
Last edited by Solstice on Thu Sep 08, 2016 3:37 am, edited 3 times in total.
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DCHindley
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Re: Plato and the Creation of the Hebrew Bible

Post by DCHindley »

Solstice,

Thanks for the link to Gmirkin's book on Berossus and Genesis.

Yes, this kind of research really does impact the relative ancientness of the Pentateuch.

Now I had long felt that the Documentary Hypothesis was necessary to explain the apparent seams and gaps in the books. Explaining them as due to use of divergent sources makes sense to me. That beings aid, I was never a fan of the way the DH was used to date the sources and their redaction.

My interest has, for a while now, been on later books like Daniel and Ezra-Nehemiah, which also appear to be a hodge-podge of sources that have been yanked out of context and used to fit the ideological goals of the editor. I think Ezra was a non-historical figure created to justify the ethnic exclusiveness of Judaism as it existed in the early centuries BCE, but I was willing to think that the return of the Judean elite from a Babylonian captivity was actually the case. Now I am not so sure.

Over time, I came to think that the Hasmonean rebellion must have triggered a national identity movement that completely revised Judean self-definition. Ever since 310 BCE, Hellenism had permeated deep into the Judean psyche. But, under the pressures by the Syro-Macedonian king Antiochus IV to completely assimilate to Hellenized ways, they redefined themselves using their ancestral practices as a model, although adopting some of the trappings of Hellenism that did not conflict with that goal.

This is very similar to the Judean self re-definition that occurred after the destruction of the temple in 70 CE, especially after it became clear that later circumstances would never allow them to rebuild it.

So, now I am ready to accept that during the process of assimilation that was occurring after Alexander's conquest of the region, the Judeans had made a conscious effort to recast their national ancestry and history, or even create some of it whole cloth, to conform to Hellenistic standards, which the elites must have studied very closely (Herodotus, Plato, Berossus, etc).

I am not yet willing to throw all of the Pentateuch away as mere rhetoric, but can accept that Hebrew sources may have existed that were re-worked. I am not sure whether this re-written history was originally published in Greek or Hebrew, although I suspect that the Greek edition was meant for international consumption, as well as for the sake of those Judeans of the Diaspora who no longer read or understood Hebrew, and that the Hebrew was intended for local consumption.

DCH
andrewcriddle
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Re: Plato and the Creation of the Hebrew Bible

Post by andrewcriddle »

Solstice wrote:Oh heck, here's a cut & paste of the most recent review of Gmirkins Berossus & Manetho book dated 10/2015 linked above. It's by Laura Knight-Jadczyk and it's somewhat thorough. She even takes the position that it may have been written in Greek first THEN translated to Hebrew:
....................................
There is an entry on Rational Wiki Laura Knight-Jadczyk which may possibly be of interest.

Andrew Criddle
Solstice
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Re: Plato and the Creation of the Hebrew Bible

Post by Solstice »

Andrew, thanks for pointing that out. It seemed like a good review at first, but after looking at her website, maybe it's better to just post the link and not the text, and leave it at that.

DCHindley wrote:

the Judeans had made a conscious effort to recast their national ancestry and history, or even create some of it whole cloth, to conform to Hellenistic standards, which the elites must have studied very closely (Herodotus, Plato, Berossus, etc).

the Greek edition was meant for international consumption, as well as for the sake of those Judeans of the Diaspora who no longer read or understood Hebrew, and that the Hebrew was intended for local consumption.


Very good points
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DCHindley
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Re: Plato and the Creation of the Hebrew Bible

Post by DCHindley »

andrewcriddle wrote:
Solstice wrote:Oh heck, here's a cut & paste of the most recent review of Gmirkins Berossus & Manetho book dated 10/2015 linked above. It's by Laura Knight-Jadczyk and it's somewhat thorough. She even takes the position that it may have been written in Greek first THEN translated to Hebrew:
....................................
There is an entry on Rational Wiki Laura Knight-Jadczyk which may possibly be of interest.

Andrew Criddle
Ahh, the answer is here:
The Wave Chapter 11: Roses Grow Best In Manure
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Clive
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Re: Plato and the Creation of the Hebrew Bible

Post by Clive »

I see no problem with someone holding very strange beliefs and also being able to write succinct clear reviews.

And I am not clear what the beliefs of a reviewer have to do with if the Pentateuch was originally finally edited together in Greek and secondarily, but probably at the same time, translated for a much smaller Hebrew speaking audience.
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Clive
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Re: Plato and the Creation of the Hebrew Bible

Post by Clive »

Producing Greek and Hebrew final editions together is a logical way of working. The ideas from both areas would thus have been continually interacting.
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Clive
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Re: Plato and the Creation of the Hebrew Bible

Post by Clive »

I witnessed something fascinating on holiday in Switzerland. An older woman greeted another woman across the street in English, the reply was in English . The conversation continued in French and German !

The conversation concluded in English . I noted similar behaviours elsewhere. It was if a particular language was used for different roles - English seemed to be the hello goodbye bookends.

What is the reality of what words are spoken when where and why in cultures where many languages are present? Was there (is there?) really such a thing as translating?
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Clive
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Re: Plato and the Creation of the Hebrew Bible

Post by Clive »

George Orwell on plain English touches on this. Maybe we do not actually read write and speak "English" but continually mix and match various Latin, Greek, French, Anglo words? Television?
"We cannot slaughter each other out of the human impasse"
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