Jacob Neusner RIP

[Ben C. Smith]

In other words, are there people who are born with the innate ability to (i) write in perfectly straight lines on blank paper and (ii) also being able to form perfectly formed right and left margins aligned on each side of the text?

Are there not numerous ways to get a straight line on a page? I can think of two right off the bat: (A) use a ruler or any other kind of straight edge, and (B) place a dark-lined piece of paper behind the page you are writing on. The method does not have to be ancient if the forgery is modern and the forger noticed that most manuscripts from the period in question had straight lines (however they got that way).

You wrote several paragraphs in your response but failed to answer the obvious question, the one which I asked previously: What specifically demonstrates the use of the mastara on these pages? Andrew Criddle has claimed that, had a mastara been used, the lines would have matched up on both sides of the page; he has further claimed that this is not what we see on these pages. This is a very specific pair of claims which, if true, would be damaging to the notion that a mastara was used, correct? So my question to you now is, are these claims true? If not, why not?

But this is typical of what happens in these discussions at least from a psychological perspective.

Please stop channeling Freud for a moment and just respond to the claims. What can you tell me about the mastara as it relates to these pages?

[Secret Alias]

You wrote several paragraphs in your response but failed to answer the obvious question, the one which I asked previously: What specifically demonstrates the use of the mastara on these pages?

I thought my several paragraphs WAS a response to that. Why not do this? Take a blank piece of paper. Write out a two and a half pages of text in ENGLISH forming where the text is (a) uniformly straight and even spaced lines and (b) where each sentence and all sentences form exact right and left margins so each page's text form a rectangular 'box' but where the space between each letter isn't exaggerated so as to 'assist' in forming the rectangular shape of the text on each page. Have it look something like this shape:

[Secret Alias]

Or this

[Secret Alias]

Sorry you can't see the uniformity of the right margin - http://psifiakaarxeia.academyofathens.g ... 2-p097.jpg

[Secret Alias]

Like, if Patriarch Procopios of Constantinople (1785 - 1789) http://www.bl.uk/manuscripts/Viewer.asp ... 6659_f001r used a mastara you have the Mar Saba handwriting.

[Secret Alias]

I think Procopios is a better candidate than Morton Smith for the handwriting. What do you think? And please don't give me the waffle about not being an expert. You were an expert enough to buy into this Carlson claptrap.

[Ben C. Smith]

You wrote several paragraphs in your response but failed to answer the obvious question, the one which I asked previously: What specifically demonstrates the use of the mastara on these pages?

I thought my several paragraphs WAS a response to that.

You did not respond to Andrew's argument. I read carefully, and you did not address it.

Why not do this? Take a blank piece of paper. Write out a two and a half pages of text in ENGLISH forming where the text is (a) uniformly straight and even spaced lines and (b) where each sentence and all sentences form exact right and left margins so each page's text form a rectangular 'box' but where the space between each letter isn't exaggerated so as to 'assist' in forming the rectangular shape of the text on each page. Have it look something like this shape:

Okay, the other page you offered (marked 97 in the upper lefthand corner) is pretty impressive. But this page from the letter to Theodore is not nearly as straight and even as that page is. I can see its letter drift with the naked eye. But let me demonstrate more fully, too:

marsabasamplemarked.jpg (168.9 KiB) Viewed 5963 times

I drew all the red lines using Microsoft Paint, and they are straight. The right margin is pretty even, but even here lines 18-20 hit the vertical line while lines 1-4 (for example) do not. But the left margin is less even still. The lines toward the bottom of the manuscript are right on the vertical line, while the lines toward the top generally are indented 1-2 letters.

As for the horizontal lines, look at how the letters of line 2 start out touching the line but steadily start floating above it by the time we get to the end. This cannot be fixed by making all of the lines crooked by exactly the same angle, since the letters of, say, line 18 are nearly perfect. Lines 23 shows the opposite trend: the left side is right on the line, but the right side descends at the end until the line is cutting the letters in half.

Here is my own effort. It is not 2 and a half pages, sorry, but it is not as if I could not continue the text in the same manner as I started:

sampleparagraph.jpg (253.49 KiB) Viewed 5963 times

And this is the same page, in JPG format, marked up in Paint:

sampleparagraphmarked.jpg (120.54 KiB) Viewed 5963 times

What do you see?

[Secret Alias]

Well if you had attempted the writing experiment on unlined paper you'd see how obvious this nonsense really is. In any event for those interested I've asked Agamemnon Tselikas to get me more writing samples of the guy who wrote this (same of similar author without a mastara) for comparison with Mar Saba 65 (same or similar author presumably with a mastara):

[Ben C. Smith]

Well if you had attempted the writing experiment on unlined paper you'd see how obvious this nonsense really is.

I did do it on unlined paper. Did you read my post too quickly? This is the original again (which I included the first time, as well):

sampleparagraph.jpg (253.49 KiB) Viewed 5950 times

No lines.

The other version has red lines which I added later, just as I did for the Mar Saba manuscript, to show how straight or crooked the lines were.

[Secret Alias]

Well I did read it too quickly partly because you used big block letters and didn't take the argument very seriously. Your sentences were written with large block letters and had very few words or letters per line. The second example I gave of (what I presume to be) the same author was clearly written without a mastara and with less formality. The line isn't nearly as straight. I've looked at hundreds of these MSS written in the Byzantine script. There always seems to be a difference between the exactness of the lines in carefully copied out texts and mere scribbled notes. I don't think this is completely subjective on my part. I will reproduce Quesnell's attempt to copy the Mar Saba ligatures while he was at the Jerusalem Patriarchate with the MS in his possession when I get a change for comparison.