The Strange Humility Displayed on the Coins of Agrippa II

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stephan happy huller
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The Strange Humility Displayed on the Coins of Agrippa II

Post by stephan happy huller »

I note this offhanded observation by Andreas J. M. Kropp in the recently released Images and Monuments of Near Eastern Dynasts, 100 BC - AD 100 (Oxford 2013):
Agrippa even adopts coin types celebrating Rome's crushing of the Jewish revolt, such as the well-known Victory inscribing a shield (Fig. 107).170 This is in keeping with Agrippa's military support for the Roman cause. The coin types of both Agrippas are a compendium of expressions of unflinching loyalty to Rome, which goes as far as taking sides against the Jews in the war against Rome. More importantly, the imagery makes direct reference to local cults, namely the Tyche of Caesarea and Pan of Panias (Fig. 105),171 and to the imperial cult. In this respect, Agrippa II goes further than his father while at the same time, he almost eliminates any celebration of his own power. (p. 252)
I have always noticed the same thing about Agrippa. The quick answer of course is to suggest that he was a 'puppet king.' However all the rulers of this period were puppets. The humility goes deeper than this. It is hard to explain. Even a puppet figure could be free to pretend he was the Lord and master of the populace at large. In fact there are numerous figures who are pointed in the period as doing exactly that. I have always found the humility of Agrippa intriguing.
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Re: The Strange Humility Displayed on the Coins of Agrippa I

Post by Peter Kirby »

Herod Agrippa II: He was friendly (Wikipedia says "intimate") with Josephus, which explains a lot I guess.
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Re: The Strange Humility Displayed on the Coins of Agrippa I

Post by Duvduv »

"Of course".......who would "Josephus" be portrayed as being friendly with? The latrine cleaner?? The mailman? The local blacksmith...........
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Re: The Strange Humility Displayed on the Coins of Agrippa I

Post by Duvduv »

Then again, there is already confusion whether the coins identifying an Agrippa II are of him.
http://www.askelm.com/star/star015.htm
The Jewish sources don't identify an Agrippa I or II, just one fellow named Agrippa.
http://www.come-and-hear.com/sotah/sotah_41.html
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Re: The Strange Humility Displayed on the Coins of Agrippa I

Post by stephan happy huller »

The premise to my ill fated book ...
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Re: The Strange Humility Displayed on the Coins of Agrippa I

Post by A_Nony_Mouse »

Celebrating the victory over the Judeans in coinage sounds exactly like what a Herodian would do.

Go to War of the Jews by Josephus. The Judeans conquered the Idumaeans and forced them on pain of death or banishment to adopt the rituals and taboos of their Yahu cult. The Herods were Idumaeans. Their involvement with the Judean tyrants and "religion" was not voluntary.

When reading Josephus ignore every assumption you might have from the Septuagint as none of them apply to the real history recounted by Josephus. The Judeans even conquered and forced the Galileans to adopt the Yahu cult. Whatever story the NT is telling it is in a backdrop of the conquest and forced conversion and rule by the tyrant priests of Yahu. Obviously Jesus would have hated them. Jesus was a Galilean.
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Re: The Strange Humility Displayed on the Coins of Agrippa I

Post by Blood »

A_Nony_Mouse wrote:
When reading Josephus ignore every assumption you might have from the Septuagint as none of them apply to the real history recounted by Josephus. The Judeans even conquered and forced the Galileans to adopt the Yahu cult. Whatever story the NT is telling it is in a backdrop of the conquest and forced conversion and rule by the tyrant priests of Yahu. Obviously Jesus would have hated them. Jesus was a Galilean.
And your evidence that "tyrant priests" of Judea "forced" the Galileans to adopt the "Yahu cult" is what exactly?
“The only sensible response to fragmented, slowly but randomly accruing evidence is radical open-mindedness. A single, simple explanation for a historical event is generally a failure of imagination, not a triumph of induction.” William H.C. Propp
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Re: The Strange Humility Displayed on the Coins of Agrippa I

Post by A_Nony_Mouse »

Blood wrote:
A_Nony_Mouse wrote:
When reading Josephus ignore every assumption you might have from the Septuagint as none of them apply to the real history recounted by Josephus. The Judeans even conquered and forced the Galileans to adopt the Yahu cult. Whatever story the NT is telling it is in a backdrop of the conquest and forced conversion and rule by the tyrant priests of Yahu. Obviously Jesus would have hated them. Jesus was a Galilean.
And your evidence that "tyrant priests" of Judea "forced" the Galileans to adopt the "Yahu cult" is what exactly?
Josephus, Wars of the Jews. He also recounts the conquest and forced conversion of the Idumaeans (Herod's folks) and the Samaritans. It explains the Judean hatred of those they conquered when they lost control of them with the fall of the Hasmoneans dynasty.

Given all the laws, mitzvahs is Orwellian doublespeak, and all the penalties and the power of the priests for summary judgement and execution written into the Septuagint (3000 over the golden calf incident for example) I would say that qualifies as tyranny. There were no appeals from their judgements nor were there independent courts.

Believers don't like Josephus much but we know a bit about Judea when it first appears in history in 67 BC with the arrival of Pompey in the region. What we know from that time and through NT times matches what Josephus describes as the back story. It does not match what is found in the Septuagint. Therefore it is not reasonable to consider the Septuagint superior to Josephus.
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Re: The Strange Humility Displayed on the Coins of Agrippa I

Post by arnoldo »

stephan happy huller wrote:I note this offhanded observation by Andreas J. M. Kropp in the recently released Images and Monuments of Near Eastern Dynasts, 100 BC - AD 100 (Oxford 2013):
Agrippa even adopts coin types celebrating Rome's crushing of the Jewish revolt, such as the well-known Victory inscribing a shield (Fig. 107).170 This is in keeping with Agrippa's military support for the Roman cause. The coin types of both Agrippas are a compendium of expressions of unflinching loyalty to Rome, which goes as far as taking sides against the Jews in the war against Rome. More importantly, the imagery makes direct reference to local cults, namely the Tyche of Caesarea and Pan of Panias (Fig. 105),171 and to the imperial cult. In this respect, Agrippa II goes further than his father while at the same time, he almost eliminates any celebration of his own power. (p. 252)
I have always noticed the same thing about Agrippa. The quick answer of course is to suggest that he was a 'puppet king.' However all the rulers of this period were puppets. The humility goes deeper than this. It is hard to explain. Even a puppet figure could be free to pretend he was the Lord and master of the populace at large. In fact there are numerous figures who are pointed in the period as doing exactly that. I have always found the humility of Agrippa intriguing.
Acts 12 depicts Agrippa as being anything but humble when perhaps being proclaimed a messiah ( or speaking with the voice of a god) by the people.
And upon a set day Herod, arrayed in royal apparel, sat upon his throne, and made an oration unto them. And the people gave a shout, saying, It is the voice of a god, and not of a man. And immediately the angel of the Lord smote him, because he gave not God the glory: and he was eaten of worms, and gave up the ghost.
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stephan happy huller
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Re: The Strange Humility Displayed on the Coins of Agrippa I

Post by stephan happy huller »

But acts 12 isn't about Agrippa II
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