Jewish prophecies of Messiah's arrival for circa 1st c. AD

[rakovsky]

I am looking for serious challenges that require me to learn new things and deeper or new understandings of what we have. (Obscenely self-indulgent, I know )

I invite you to read my website.

I don't know anything about your website.

If you would like a challenge and to learn new things, I invite you to the site.

[Secret Alias]

The difficulty I have with Neil's argument is that he assumes that anything that is not expressed openly has no real existence. For instance let's consider the history of homosexuality. Is the fact that little in the way of positive accounts of male on male intercourse mean that writers in the Middle Ages through the modern era were gay? In the same way as homosexuality was kept in the closet so too insurrection and revolutionary movements. Josephus's account of the war bypasses messianic inspiration in the same way that Leonardo da Vinci's notebooks aren't filled with images of cocks. The fact that things aren't said doesn't mean they weren't believed. In fact, the most sacred things were not given voice because they were so intensely sacred.

[neilgodfrey]

The difficulty I have with Neil's argument is that he assumes that anything that is not expressed openly has no real existence. For instance let's consider the history of homosexuality. Is the fact that little in the way of positive accounts of male on male intercourse mean that writers in the Middle Ages through the modern era were gay? In the same way as homosexuality was kept in the closet so too insurrection and revolutionary movements. Josephus's account of the war bypasses messianic inspiration in the same way that Leonardo da Vinci's notebooks aren't filled with images of cocks. The fact that things aren't said doesn't mean they weren't believed. In fact, the most sacred things were not given voice because they were so intensely sacred.

Not at all. Did you read my argument about the Josephus evidence? It is a positive argument for an alternative explanation that does not need to bring in ideas anachronistically into the text to be cogent.

Many assume Josephus does not mention messiahs because he did not want to offend his Roman audience. So the assumption is that he really was talking about them without identifying them as such. But the argument is not well thought through. There could be no offence to Romans if he sided with them by denouncing them as he denounces every other rebel.

I do not assume that something does not exist if it is not expressed openly at all. I am quite sure many things existed that are not mentioned by Josephus. But if I find the evidence or data that we have can be understood without injecting messianic ideas into it then surely it is problematic to introduce messianic ideas into it.

None of the so-called evidence for early first century popular messianic hopes passes scrutiny. No-one here has addressed any of the arguments against the use of the DSS, for example, as supposed evidence of popular early first century messianism or even for messianic preoccupations by sectarians themselves.

[Secret Alias]

But how do you handle the gospel's interest in making Jesus a descendant of David (as well as the follow up arguments in the Church Fathers)? Are you arguing that Christianity first developed the 'Davidic messiah' expectation? Are you saying that the Jews imitated and reformed Christian propaganda? Sound like it.

[Secret Alias]

Also the Davidic connotation is explicit in several passages in the Qumran literature - viz. the Florilegium, 4Q174; the pesher on Genesis 4Q252; a pesher on Isaiah, 4Q161, and a fragment of the War Rule, 4Q285. The texts date to at least the first century BCE.

[Secret Alias]

And Baba Bathra:

Herod was the slave of the Hasmonean house, and had set his eyes on a certain maiden [of that house].18 One day he heard a Bath Kol19 say, 'Every slave that rebels now will succeed.' So he rose and killed all the members of his master's20 household, but spared that maiden. When she saw that he wanted to marry her, she went up on to a roof and cried out, 'Whoever comes and says, I am from the Hasmonean house, is a slave, since I21 alone am left of it, and I am throwing myself down from this roof.' He preserved her body in honey for seven years. Some say that he had intercourse with her, others that he did not. According to those who say that he had intercourse with her, his reason for embalming her was to gratify his desires. According to those who say that he did not have intercourse with her, his reason was that people might say that he had married a king's daughter.

Would appear to me at least to deny the Herodian claim to Davidic ancestry or Davidic continuity. Not explicitly 'messianic' but at least proto-messianic.

[Secret Alias]

And kabbalah is another parallel to the Davidic messiah. When white people were in charge of the study of Judaism it was inferred that kabbalah was a late development in Judaism - for many of the same reasons highlighted by Neil with respect to the Davidic messiah. But really?

[Secret Alias]

Matthew 1:1, 17 - 20 - The book of the generation of Jesus Christ, the son of David, the son of Abraham ... And Jacob begat Joseph the husband of Mary, of whom was born Jesus, who is called Christ. So all the generations from Abraham to David are fourteen generations; and from David until the carrying away into Babylon are fourteen generations; and from the carrying away into Babylon unto Christ are fourteen generations. Now the birth of Jesus Christ was on this wise: When as his mother Mary was espoused to Joseph, before they came together, she was found with child of the Holy Ghost. Then Joseph her husband, being a just man, and not willing to make her a publick example, was minded to put her away privily. But while he thought on these things, behold, the angel of the Lord appeared unto him in a dream, saying, Joseph, thou son of David ...

Matthew 12:23 And all the people were amazed, and said, Is not this the son of David?

Matthew 21:9 And the multitudes that went before, and that followed, cried, saying, Hosanna to the Son of David: Blessed is he that cometh in the name of the Lord; Hosanna in the highest.

[Secret Alias]

Tertullian Against the Jews 9 And that the virgin of whom it behoved Christ to be born (as we have above mentioned) must derive her lineage of the seed of David, the prophet in subsequent passages evidently asserts. "And there shall be born," he says, "a rod from the root of Jesse"--which rod is Mary--"and a flower shall ascend from his root: and there shall rest upon him the Spirit of God, the spirit of wisdom and understanding, the spirit of discernment and piety, the spirit of counsel and truth; the spirit of God's fear shall fill Him." For to none of men was the universal aggregation of spiritual credentials appropriate, except to Christ; paralleled as He is to a "flower" by reason of glory, by reason of grace; but accounted "of the root of Jesse," whence His origin is to be deduced,--to wit, through Mary. For He was from the native soil of Bethlehem, and from the house of David; as, among the Romans, Mary is described in the census, of whom is born Christ.

[Secret Alias]

"Important and rich concepts of the Messiah are found in 2 Baruch which was written sometime during the second half of the first century A.D....In chapter 72, it is said that the Messiah shall summon all the nations; he shall spare those who have not oppressed or known Israel; but he shall slay those who have ruled over her." Charlesworth, Pp.200-201 4 Ezra 12:31-34: "And as for the lion whom you saw rousing up out of the forest and roaring and speaking to the eagle and reproving him for his unrighteousness, and as for all his words that you have heard, this is the Messiah whom the Most High has kept until the end of days; who will arise from the posterity of David, and will come and speak to them; he will denounce them for their ungodliness and for their wickedness, and will cast up before them their contemptuous dealings. For first he will set them living before his judgement seat, and when he has reproved them, then he will destroy them. But he will deliver in mercy the remnant of my people, those who have been saved throughout my borders, and he will make them joyful until the end comes, the day of judgment, of which I spoke to you at the beginning." Charlesworth 204

.... Only five documents in the Pseudepigrapha contain Jewish comments about “the Messiah,” “the Anointed One,” or “the Christ.” Certainly one of the best known and important passages is in the seventeenth Psalm of Solomon, which was written around the middle of the first century B.C. [13] In verses 21–33, we find a description of the Messiah who will be a descendant of David and who will purge Jerusalem of her enemies not by means of a sword or through military conquest but “with the word of his mouth.” [14] These verses are as follows:

See, Lord, and raise up for them their King,
the son of David, to rule over your servant Israel
in the time known to you, O God.
Undergird him with the strength to destroy
the unrighteous rulers,
to purge Jerusalem from gentiles
who trample her to destruction;
in wisdom and in righteousness to drive out
the sinners from the inheritance;
To smash the arrogance of sinners
like a potter’s jar;
To shatter all their substance with an iron rod;
To destroy the unlawful nation with the word of his mouth;
and he will condemn sinners by the thoughts of their hearts.
He will gather a holy people
whom he will lead in righteousness;
and he will judge the tribes of the people
that have been made holy by the Lord their God . . .
There will be no unrighteousness among them in his days
for all shall be holy,
and their king shall be the Lord Messiah. [15]
(For) he will not rely on horse and rider and bow,
nor will he collect gold and silver for war.
Nor will he build up hope in a multitude for a day of war. [16]

... The second messianic section of 4 Ezra, 11:37–12:34, contains the seer’s description of “a creation like a lion” (11:37), who come out of the forest roaring and speaking in a man’s voice. The words and actions of the lion arouse the supposition that he is the Messiah. This suspicion is confirmed by a rare identification and clear explanation in 12:31–34.

And as for the lion whom you saw rousing up out of the forest and roaring and speaking to the eagle and reproving him for his unrighteousness, and as for all his words that you have heard, this is the Messiah whom the Most High has kept until the end of days, who will arise from the posterity of David, and will come and speak to them; he will denounce them for their ungodliness and for their wickedness, and will cast up before them their contemptuous dealings. For first he will set them living before his judgment seat, and when he has reproved them, then he will destroy them. But he will deliver in mercy the remnant of my people, those who have been saved throughout my borders, and he will make them joyful until the end comes, the day of judgment, of which I spoke to you at the beginning.
In this section, we are told that the Messiah will come at “the end of days”; that he will be a descendant of David; and that on the one hand he will judge, denounce, reprove, and destroy the ungodly, and on the other he will deliver “the remnant of my people” and “make them joyful until the end comes.” It It is obvious, therefore, that he is both a warrior and judge; [39] and that after the day of judgment there is something yet to be, which was earlier described as the new age and the new world.

... The fifth and final document in the Pseudepigrapha that contains the proper concept of the Messiah is a late composition entitled 3 Enoch. The Messiah is mentioned in 45:5 and 48:10(A) which belong to the section of 3 Enoch that comprises the main body of the document (chapters 3–48 A), which Hugo Odeberg dates to the latter half of the third century A.D. [50] Odeberg translates 45:5 as follows: [51]

And I saw Messiah, son of Joseph, [52] and his generation and their works and their doings that they will do against the nations of the world. And I saw Messiah, son of David, and his generation, and all the fights and wars, and their works and their doings that they will do with Israel both for good and evil. And I saw all the fights and wars that Gog and Magog will fight in the days of Messiah, and all the Holy One, blessed be He, will do with them in the time to come.

... The second passage in 3 Enoch that contains a reference to the Messiah, 48:10(A), describes the celebrations with the Messiah after Israel is saved from among the nations of the world.”

And Messiah will appear unto them and He will bring them up to Jerusalem with great joy. And not only that but they will eat and drink for they will glorify the Kingdom of Messiah, of the house of David, in the four quarters of the world. And the nations of the world will not prevail against them, as it is written (Is. lii. 10): “The Lord hath made bare his holy arm in the eyes of all the nations; and all the ends of the earth shall see the salvation of our God.” And again (Deut. xxxii. 12): “The Lord alone did lead him, and there was no strange god with him.” (Zech. xiv.9): “And the Lord shall be king over all the earth.” [58]
In this passage, we seem to obtain confirmation of the idea that the author of 3 Enoch believes that only God himself will be able to win the final war for Israel; and it is impressive to observe that the source of his idea is none other than the Old Testament itself, namely Isaiah, Deuteronomy, and Zechariah.