Jewish prophecies of Messiah's arrival for circa 1st c. AD

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Secret Alias
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Re: Jewish prophecies of Messiah's arrival for circa 1st c.

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Again, how is this evidence for widespread popular messianic expectations in the early first century?
But did the Christian authors of the second and third centuries invent the concept of the Jewish messiah or the messianic son of David? This is the point. The source is clearly a pre-existent Jewish 'son of David' who is the messiah. When did this arise? At least by the time of the first publication of the Qumran texts so pre-Jewish War.
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Secret Alias
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Re: Jewish prophecies of Messiah's arrival for circa 1st c.

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There was a Jewish war against the Romans. Josephus goes out of his way to avoid attributing the war to Jewish messianic exegesis of Biblical texts. Instead he goes so far as to confirm Roman authority by means of these expectations and Vespasian in particular. It seems obvious why the history of the Jewish War was written the way it was. You don't see it of course. Willful ignorance? Convenient ignorance? The obvious explanation is that Josephus was protecting Jewish messianic exegesis or at least the scriptures and the religion of the Jews. He was demonstrating that they don't necessarily lead to the conclusions celebrated by the revolutionaries. Justus of Tiberias thought Josephus's history was a pile of crap. Maybe it was.
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rakovsky
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Re: Jewish prophecies of Messiah's arrival for circa 1st c.

Post by rakovsky »

Secret Alias wrote:The difficulty I have with Neil's argument is that he assumes that anything that is not expressed openly has no real existence.
The other difficulty is that he reasons away or ignores the vast amount of direct evidence like I quoted a few pages ago in my photos.

How many messianic contenders and messianic rebels and leaders were there in the decades when they had independence and the Hasmoneans were in control? Zero? How about in Ezra's time?

How many in and near to the 1st c. AD were there? Simon of Perea, Athronges, Theudas, Judas the Galilean, Jesus the Nazarene, Bar Kokhba. Any others? There was Vespasian as a candidate in the eyes of Josephus.

Six to seven is more than zero, so people in that time period when they were living under Roman rule probably had more hope for Messiah than when they weren't living in that time period.

It gets down to even totally basic math and human psychology.

It's like arguing about whether the Indian people had any greater hope for a leader to bring them from under British rule when they were under British rule than before.

or whether African slaves in America had any greater hope for freedom from slavery when they were in America than when they were living freely in Africa.

:problem:
Josephus's account of the war bypasses messianic inspiration in the same way that Leonardo da Vinci's notebooks aren't filled with images of cocks.
:lol:

My research on the prophecies of the Messiah's resurrection: http://rakovskii.livejournal.com
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neilgodfrey
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Re: Jewish prophecies of Messiah's arrival for circa 1st c.

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Secret Alias wrote:
Only fundamentalists and apologists treat this as a literal historical record.
Ummm. You were fundamentalist. I was born to atheist parents. The facts are that whenever Matthew was written or the text from which Matthew was adapted assumes (and remolds) the concept of a messianic 'son of David' or descendant of David. It's not worth going down your rabbit hole. The question is clearly how many Jewish books or traditions do we have from the period vs how many are likely to have survived given widespread Roman censorship of subversive religions/traditions. If anything the early rabbinic literature is obscure when it comes to the concept of the messiah. It admits or acknowledges the terminology but avoids explicitly accepting 'messianic hope.' What could have caused this ambivalence? Hmmm. Could it be that the Romans enjoyed practicing cruelty. This is so stupid. You have this (deliberate) naivete when it comes to reading texts whenever it convenient.
Why the Ummm?

Why the accusation relating to my motives or mental state?

Why do you create arguments and scenarios without evidence? Are you still opposed to reading "kooky books"? Sorry, but yes, I do happen to agree with the fundamentals of the historical methodologies that those "kooky books" by "kooky scholars" happen to say. Have you read Steve Mason's work, for example -- or do you reject him because he is a white man or something?

I ask for evidence and argument and you reply with personal innuendo.
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neilgodfrey
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Re: Jewish prophecies of Messiah's arrival for circa 1st c.

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Secret Alias wrote:And what happens to texts associated with failed messianic expectations/ What happened to the literature associated with bar Kochba? There must have been such texts. They were destroyed. By whom? Like a combination of Roman paranoia and Jewish embarrassment wiped them out. The same goes to messianic figures of previous eras.
Okay - that's fine. If the evidence has been destroyed then we can never know, can we. Obviously there is much we don't know about the ancient world because of the limited evidence available. But I'm one of those who thinks that state of affairs requires us to exercise more caution, not less, with the data we do have.
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neilgodfrey
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Re: Jewish prophecies of Messiah's arrival for circa 1st c.

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Secret Alias wrote:I don't think that the messiah is a fundamental concept in the Pentateuch. Let's make that clear. But it clearly predates the Jewish War.
Of course the messiah was a fundamental concept of the Pentateuch. The most fundamental part of it there was the anointed high priest.

But just pointing to lots of texts speaking of the messiah tells us nothing at all about lots of people in a particular place all eagerly expecting a messiah to come very soon. And that's before we even get to the first century.
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neilgodfrey
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Re: Jewish prophecies of Messiah's arrival for circa 1st c.

Post by neilgodfrey »

Secret Alias wrote:
Again, how is this evidence for widespread popular messianic expectations in the early first century?
But did the Christian authors of the second and third centuries invent the concept of the Jewish messiah or the messianic son of David? This is the point. The source is clearly a pre-existent Jewish 'son of David' who is the messiah. When did this arise? At least by the time of the first publication of the Qumran texts so pre-Jewish War.

That's all very fine. But it tells us nothing about lots of people all eagerly anticipating the messiah to come at any particular time.
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neilgodfrey
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Re: Jewish prophecies of Messiah's arrival for circa 1st c.

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Secret Alias wrote:There was a Jewish war against the Romans. Josephus goes out of his way to avoid attributing the war to Jewish messianic exegesis of Biblical texts. Instead he goes so far as to confirm Roman authority by means of these expectations and Vespasian in particular. It seems obvious why the history of the Jewish War was written the way it was. You don't see it of course. Willful ignorance? Convenient ignorance? The obvious explanation is that Josephus was protecting Jewish messianic exegesis or at least the scriptures and the religion of the Jews. He was demonstrating that they don't necessarily lead to the conclusions celebrated by the revolutionaries. Justus of Tiberias thought Josephus's history was a pile of crap. Maybe it was.
If you are attempting to engage in discussion with me it would be appreciated if you read my own comments first. I have addressed the flaw in your argument about Josephus now several times, and once quite recently. If you wish to rebut my point then do so, but don't just repeat an argument I have addressed already without explaining what was wrong with my criticism of it.
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neilgodfrey
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Re: Jewish prophecies of Messiah's arrival for circa 1st c.

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Last edited by neilgodfrey on Fri Feb 03, 2017 1:54 am, edited 2 times in total.
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neilgodfrey
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Re: Jewish prophecies of Messiah's arrival for circa 1st c.

Post by neilgodfrey »

Secret Alias wrote:There was a Jewish war against the Romans. Josephus goes out of his way to avoid attributing the war to Jewish messianic exegesis of Biblical texts. Instead he goes so far as to confirm Roman authority by means of these expectations and Vespasian in particular. It seems obvious why the history of the Jewish War was written the way it was. You don't see it of course. Willful ignorance? Convenient ignorance? The obvious explanation is that Josephus was protecting Jewish messianic exegesis or at least the scriptures and the religion of the Jews. He was demonstrating that they don't necessarily lead to the conclusions celebrated by the revolutionaries. Justus of Tiberias thought Josephus's history was a pile of crap. Maybe it was.
I have addressed more than once now the various flaws in these arguments -- do you want me to repeat them?
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