Jewish prophecies of Messiah's arrival for circa 1st c. AD

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neilgodfrey
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Re: Jewish prophecies of Messiah's arrival for circa 1st c.

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Secret Alias wrote:But how do you handle the gospel's interest in making Jesus a descendant of David (as well as the follow up arguments in the Church Fathers)? Are you arguing that Christianity first developed the 'Davidic messiah' expectation? Are you saying that the Jews imitated and reformed Christian propaganda? Sound like it.
I am not disputing the existence of concepts of messiah or debates about Christology. But these mostly belong to a period much later than the early first century. Even the "seed of David" passage in Romans is not a secure foundation for any "fact" given its questionable status in the record. But let's assume those verses in Romans 1 were indeed written in the mid first century -- they don't testify to any widespread movement among Palestinian Jews eagerly anticipating a messiah to appear in that early period of the first century.

I don't know why you think I am suggesting Jews imitated and reformed Christian propaganda or how that relates to the lack of evidence we have for early first century popular messianism.
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neilgodfrey
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Re: Jewish prophecies of Messiah's arrival for circa 1st c.

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Secret Alias wrote:Also the Davidic connotation is explicit in several passages in the Qumran literature - viz. the Florilegium, 4Q174; the pesher on Genesis 4Q252; a pesher on Isaiah, 4Q161, and a fragment of the War Rule, 4Q285. The texts date to at least the first century BCE.
As I have pointed out several times now, the DSS references to a messiah are relatively scant and vague. They do not point even to the sectarians themselves being particularly preoccupied with messianic hopes.

For some details see a post that I linked earlier.
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neilgodfrey
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Re: Jewish prophecies of Messiah's arrival for circa 1st c.

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Secret Alias wrote:And Baba Bathra:
Herod was the slave of the Hasmonean house, and had set his eyes on a certain maiden [of that house].18 One day he heard a Bath Kol19 say, 'Every slave that rebels now will succeed.' So he rose and killed all the members of his master's20 household, but spared that maiden. When she saw that he wanted to marry her, she went up on to a roof and cried out, 'Whoever comes and says, I am from the Hasmonean house, is a slave, since I21 alone am left of it, and I am throwing myself down from this roof.' He preserved her body in honey for seven years. Some say that he had intercourse with her, others that he did not. According to those who say that he had intercourse with her, his reason for embalming her was to gratify his desires. According to those who say that he did not have intercourse with her, his reason was that people might say that he had married a king's daughter.
Would appear to me at least to deny the Herodian claim to Davidic ancestry or Davidic continuity. Not explicitly 'messianic' but at least proto-messianic.
I don't see any connection with the idea of widespread anticipation of a messiah to come in the early first century.
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neilgodfrey
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Re: Jewish prophecies of Messiah's arrival for circa 1st c.

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Secret Alias wrote:And kabbalah is another parallel to the Davidic messiah. When white people were in charge of the study of Judaism it was inferred that kabbalah was a late development in Judaism - for many of the same reasons highlighted by Neil with respect to the Davidic messiah. But really?
Again, how is this evidence for widespread popular messianic expectations in the early first century?
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Re: Jewish prophecies of Messiah's arrival for circa 1st c.

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Secret Alias wrote:Matthew 1:1, 17 - 20 - The book of the generation of Jesus Christ, the son of David, the son of Abraham ... And Jacob begat Joseph the husband of Mary, of whom was born Jesus, who is called Christ. So all the generations from Abraham to David are fourteen generations; and from David until the carrying away into Babylon are fourteen generations; and from the carrying away into Babylon unto Christ are fourteen generations. Now the birth of Jesus Christ was on this wise: When as his mother Mary was espoused to Joseph, before they came together, she was found with child of the Holy Ghost. Then Joseph her husband, being a just man, and not willing to make her a publick example, was minded to put her away privily. But while he thought on these things, behold, the angel of the Lord appeared unto him in a dream, saying, Joseph, thou son of David ...

Matthew 12:23 And all the people were amazed, and said, Is not this the son of David?

Matthew 21:9 And the multitudes that went before, and that followed, cried, saying, Hosanna to the Son of David: Blessed is he that cometh in the name of the Lord; Hosanna in the highest.
Only fundamentalists and apologists treat this as a literal historical record.
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Re: Jewish prophecies of Messiah's arrival for circa 1st c.

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Secret Alias wrote:Tertullian Against the Jews 9 And that the virgin of whom it behoved Christ to be born (as we have above mentioned) must derive her lineage of the seed of David, the prophet in subsequent passages evidently asserts. "And there shall be born," he says, "a rod from the root of Jesse"--which rod is Mary--"and a flower shall ascend from his root: and there shall rest upon him the Spirit of God, the spirit of wisdom and understanding, the spirit of discernment and piety, the spirit of counsel and truth; the spirit of God's fear shall fill Him." For to none of men was the universal aggregation of spiritual credentials appropriate, except to Christ; paralleled as He is to a "flower" by reason of glory, by reason of grace; but accounted "of the root of Jesse," whence His origin is to be deduced,--to wit, through Mary. For He was from the native soil of Bethlehem, and from the house of David; as, among the Romans, Mary is described in the census, of whom is born Christ.
Again, how is this evidence for widespread popular messianic expectations in the early first century?
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Re: Jewish prophecies of Messiah's arrival for circa 1st c.

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Secret Alias wrote:"Important and rich concepts of the Messiah are found in 2 Baruch which was written sometime during the second half of the first century A.D....In chapter 72, it is said that the Messiah shall summon all the nations; he shall spare those who have not oppressed or known Israel; but he shall slay those who have ruled over her." Charlesworth, Pp.200-201 4 Ezra 12:31-34: "And as for the lion whom you saw rousing up out of the forest and roaring and speaking to the eagle and reproving him for his unrighteousness, and as for all his words that you have heard, this is the Messiah whom the Most High has kept until the end of days; who will arise from the posterity of David, and will come and speak to them; he will denounce them for their ungodliness and for their wickedness, and will cast up before them their contemptuous dealings. For first he will set them living before his judgement seat, and when he has reproved them, then he will destroy them. But he will deliver in mercy the remnant of my people, those who have been saved throughout my borders, and he will make them joyful until the end comes, the day of judgment, of which I spoke to you at the beginning." Charlesworth 204

.... Only five documents in the Pseudepigrapha contain Jewish comments about “the Messiah,” “the Anointed One,” or “the Christ.” Certainly one of the best known and important passages is in the seventeenth Psalm of Solomon, which was written around the middle of the first century B.C. [13] In verses 21–33, we find a description of the Messiah who will be a descendant of David and who will purge Jerusalem of her enemies not by means of a sword or through military conquest but “with the word of his mouth.” [14] These verses are as follows:

See, Lord, and raise up for them their King,
the son of David, to rule over your servant Israel
in the time known to you, O God.
Undergird him with the strength to destroy
the unrighteous rulers,
to purge Jerusalem from gentiles
who trample her to destruction;
in wisdom and in righteousness to drive out
the sinners from the inheritance;
To smash the arrogance of sinners
like a potter’s jar;
To shatter all their substance with an iron rod;
To destroy the unlawful nation with the word of his mouth;
and he will condemn sinners by the thoughts of their hearts.
He will gather a holy people
whom he will lead in righteousness;
and he will judge the tribes of the people
that have been made holy by the Lord their God . . .
There will be no unrighteousness among them in his days
for all shall be holy,
and their king shall be the Lord Messiah. [15]
(For) he will not rely on horse and rider and bow,
nor will he collect gold and silver for war.
Nor will he build up hope in a multitude for a day of war. [16]

... The second messianic section of 4 Ezra, 11:37–12:34, contains the seer’s description of “a creation like a lion” (11:37), who come out of the forest roaring and speaking in a man’s voice. The words and actions of the lion arouse the supposition that he is the Messiah. This suspicion is confirmed by a rare identification and clear explanation in 12:31–34.

And as for the lion whom you saw rousing up out of the forest and roaring and speaking to the eagle and reproving him for his unrighteousness, and as for all his words that you have heard, this is the Messiah whom the Most High has kept until the end of days, who will arise from the posterity of David, and will come and speak to them; he will denounce them for their ungodliness and for their wickedness, and will cast up before them their contemptuous dealings. For first he will set them living before his judgment seat, and when he has reproved them, then he will destroy them. But he will deliver in mercy the remnant of my people, those who have been saved throughout my borders, and he will make them joyful until the end comes, the day of judgment, of which I spoke to you at the beginning.
In this section, we are told that the Messiah will come at “the end of days”; that he will be a descendant of David; and that on the one hand he will judge, denounce, reprove, and destroy the ungodly, and on the other he will deliver “the remnant of my people” and “make them joyful until the end comes.” It It is obvious, therefore, that he is both a warrior and judge; [39] and that after the day of judgment there is something yet to be, which was earlier described as the new age and the new world.

... The fifth and final document in the Pseudepigrapha that contains the proper concept of the Messiah is a late composition entitled 3 Enoch. The Messiah is mentioned in 45:5 and 48:10(A) which belong to the section of 3 Enoch that comprises the main body of the document (chapters 3–48 A), which Hugo Odeberg dates to the latter half of the third century A.D. [50] Odeberg translates 45:5 as follows: [51]

And I saw Messiah, son of Joseph, [52] and his generation and their works and their doings that they will do against the nations of the world. And I saw Messiah, son of David, and his generation, and all the fights and wars, and their works and their doings that they will do with Israel both for good and evil. And I saw all the fights and wars that Gog and Magog will fight in the days of Messiah, and all the Holy One, blessed be He, will do with them in the time to come.
Again, can you explain how this is evidence for widespread popular messianic expectations in the early first century?
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Secret Alias
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Re: Jewish prophecies of Messiah's arrival for circa 1st c.

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Only fundamentalists and apologists treat this as a literal historical record.
Ummm. You were fundamentalist. I was born to atheist parents. The facts are that whenever Matthew was written or the text from which Matthew was adapted assumes (and remolds) the concept of a messianic 'son of David' or descendant of David. It's not worth going down your rabbit hole. The question is clearly how many Jewish books or traditions do we have from the period vs how many are likely to have survived given widespread Roman censorship of subversive religions/traditions. If anything the early rabbinic literature is obscure when it comes to the concept of the messiah. It admits or acknowledges the terminology but avoids explicitly accepting 'messianic hope.' What could have caused this ambivalence? Hmmm. Could it be that the Romans enjoyed practicing cruelty. This is so stupid. You have this (deliberate) naivete when it comes to reading texts whenever it convenient.
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Secret Alias
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Re: Jewish prophecies of Messiah's arrival for circa 1st c.

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And what happens to texts associated with failed messianic expectations/ What happened to the literature associated with bar Kochba? There must have been such texts. They were destroyed. By whom? Like a combination of Roman paranoia and Jewish embarrassment wiped them out. The same goes to messianic figures of previous eras.
“Finally, from so little sleeping and so much reading, his brain dried up and he went completely out of his mind.”
― Miguel de Cervantes Saavedra, Don Quixote
Secret Alias
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Re: Jewish prophecies of Messiah's arrival for circa 1st c.

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I don't think that the messiah is a fundamental concept in the Pentateuch. Let's make that clear. But it clearly predates the Jewish War.
“Finally, from so little sleeping and so much reading, his brain dried up and he went completely out of his mind.”
― Miguel de Cervantes Saavedra, Don Quixote
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