Jewish prophecies of Messiah's arrival for circa 1st c. AD

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rakovsky
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Re: Jewish prophecies of Messiah's arrival for circa 1st c.

Post by rakovsky »

neilgodfrey wrote:
You have not given any evidence at all for your claim that Jews generally believed or were preoccupied with a belief that a messiah was to come and rescue them. None.
:scratch:

Traditional NonChristian Judaism's teaching over the last two millenia of such a belief about a Moschiach ben David in the Tanakh is "evidence".
When Christians and NonChristian Jews have traditionally agreed on some major theological point about the Tanakh for the last two millenia, that is major "evidence" that 1st c. Judaism taught such a belief too.
The Targums were Aramaic translations of the Hebrew OT, that apparently circulated during the time of Jesus (e.g. there are Targums of Job and Lev. in the Dead Sea Scrolls). Although these documents were written down AFTER the NT period, these represent typically VERY ancient understandings of OT passages. If the Targums interpreted OT passages messianically, this generally indicates that ancient Jewry had messianic expectations. We also know that Targums circulated BEFORE the NT times, since some of them were found at Qumran.

...source: S.H. Levey, The Messiah: An Aramaic Interpretation, Monograph of the Hebrew Union College 2: Cincinnati: 1974.--cited with chart at NWNTI:108.].
...
2 Sam 23.1-5: "...Said David, the son of Jesse, said the man who was anointed to the Messianic Kingship by the Memra of the God of Jacob...God spoke to me...and He decided to appoint for me a king, he is the Messiah, who is destined to arise and rule in the fear of the Lord..."
http://www.osyministries.com/index.php? ... s&Itemid=1
For more quotes, click the link above.

I don't see much point in edification in debating whether 1st c. Jews believed in the concept of Messiah ben David. The concept is one of the 13 necessary fundamentals of Judaism according to RAMBAM.
Belief in the eventual coming of the mashiach is a basic and fundamental part of traditional Judaism. It is part of Rambam's 13 Principles of Faith, the minimum requirements of Jewish belief. In the Shemoneh Esrei prayer, recited three times daily, we pray for all of the elements of the coming of the mashiach: ingathering of the exiles; restoration of the religious courts of justice; an end of wickedness, sin and heresy; reward to the righteous; rebuilding of Jerusalem; restoration of the line of King David; and restoration of Temple service.

Modern scholars suggest that the messianic concept was introduced later in the history of Judaism, during the age of the prophets.
...
The following passages in the Jewish scriptures are the ones that Jews consider to be messianic in nature or relating to the end of days. :

Isaiah 2, 11, 42; 59:20
Jeremiah 23, 30, 33; 48:47; 49:39
Ezekiel 38:16
Hosea 3:4-3:5
Micah 4
Zephaniah 3:9
Zechariah 14:9
Daniel 10:14

If you want to know how Jews interpret the passages that Christians consider to be messianic, see Jews for Judaism
http://www.jewfaq.org/mashiach.htm
^ Those passages were around in 1 AD.

It's like arguing that 1st c. Jews didn't believe a fundamental concept that Christians, NonChristian Jews, and scholars agree that 1st c. Jews believed.
Even Muslims have the concept of Messiah, as they call Jesus "Al-Masih", the Arab Christian word for Mashiach.

No serious reason to debate whether 1st c. Jews had a concept of Messiah ben David IMO.

My research on the prophecies of the Messiah's resurrection: http://rakovskii.livejournal.com
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neilgodfrey
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Re: Jewish prophecies of Messiah's arrival for circa 1st c.

Post by neilgodfrey »

rakovsky wrote:
neilgodfrey wrote:
You have not given any evidence at all for your claim that Jews generally believed or were preoccupied with a belief that a messiah was to come and rescue them. None.
Traditional NonChristian Judaism's teaching over the last two millenia of such a belief about a Moschiach ben David in the Tanakh is "evidence".
You are missing the argument here.

What you seem to be saying here (correct me if I am wrong) is that Jewish teaching of the last 2000 years is the same as it was in the early first century CE and that the Jews of the early first century CE, believing just what Jews have been teaching ever since, was what motivated them to be on the lookout for a messiah to come in their own time? I do not understand -- are you suggesting that for 2000 years Jews have all as a general religious characteristic been eagerly anticipating with the same fervour as those early first C Jews the messiah to come in their own life time?

There is no evidence that the Jewish teachings of the "past 2000 years" were the same as those of the general Jewish population in the Second Temple era -- quite the opposite in fact.

Again, you seem set on avoiding the arguments I have presented and making sweeping generalizations to the contrary without supporting evidence.
rakovsky wrote:When Christians and NonChristian Jews have traditionally agreed on some major theological point about the Tanakh for the last two millenia, that is major "evidence" that 1st c. Judaism taught such a belief too.
For a start, Jews in the last 2000 years have not had such unified views as you seem to think; next, you would do well to study the history of Judaism, especially the rise of rabbinic Judaism and how it differed so significantly from the many "judaisms" of the Second Temple era. Need to go beyond the Bible and apologetic books and look at the serious scholarship addressing the full range of data and historical sources.
The Targums were Aramaic translations of the Hebrew OT, that apparently circulated during the time of Jesus (e.g. there are Targums of Job and Lev. in the Dead Sea Scrolls). Although these documents were written down AFTER the NT period, these represent typically VERY ancient understandings of OT passages. If the Targums interpreted OT passages messianically, this generally indicates that ancient Jewry had messianic expectations. We also know that Targums circulated BEFORE the NT times, since some of them were found at Qumran.

...source: S.H. Levey, The Messiah: An Aramaic Interpretation, Monograph of the Hebrew Union College 2: Cincinnati: 1974.--cited with chart at NWNTI:108.].
...
2 Sam 23.1-5: "...Said David, the son of Jesse, said the man who was anointed to the Messianic Kingship by the Memra of the God of Jacob...God spoke to me...and He decided to appoint for me a king, he is the Messiah, who is destined to arise and rule in the fear of the Lord..."
http://www.osyministries.com/index.php? ... s&Itemid=1
That's all very nice, but it's not the scholarly consensus and it needs to be argued, especially given so much new scholarship exploring these questions since 1974. Did you take the time to read my posts linking to where some good scholarship is listed?

I don't see much point in edification in debating whether 1st c. Jews believed in the concept of Messiah ben David. It's one of the 13 necessary fundamentals of Judaism according to RAMBAM.
Belief in the eventual coming of the mashiach is a basic and fundamental part of traditional Judaism. It is part of Rambam's 13 Principles of Faith, the minimum requirements of Jewish belief. In the Shemoneh Esrei prayer, recited three times daily, we pray for all of the elements of the coming of the mashiach: ingathering of the exiles; restoration of the religious courts of justice; an end of wickedness, sin and heresy; reward to the righteous; rebuilding of Jerusalem; restoration of the line of King David; and restoration of Temple service.

Modern scholars suggest that the messianic concept was introduced later in the history of Judaism, during the age of the prophets.
...
The following passages in the Jewish scriptures are the ones that Jews consider to be messianic in nature or relating to the end of days. :

Isaiah 2, 11, 42; 59:20
Jeremiah 23, 30, 33; 48:47; 49:39
Ezekiel 38:16
Hosea 3:4-3:5
Micah 4
Zephaniah 3:9
Zechariah 14:9
Daniel 10:14

If you want to know how Jews interpret the passages that Christians consider to be messianic, see Jews for Judaism
http://www.jewfaq.org/mashiach.htm
It's like arguing that 1st c. Jews didn't believe what Christians, NonChristian Jews, and scholars agree that 1st c. Jews believed.
Even Muslims have the concept of Messiah, as they call Jesus "Al-Masih", the Arab Christian word for Mashiach.

No serious reason to debate whether 1st c. Jews had a concept of Messiah ben David IMO.
I have started anew the argument in the Christian texts forum. You seem to be determined to avoid the arguments that critique your own claims and quotations. It is more productive for discussion to actually engage with the criticisms, not simply ignore them. Just repeating old ideas as if there is no valid criticism of them out there is not particularly enlightening.
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Re: Jewish prophecies of Messiah's arrival for circa 1st c.

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rakovsky
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Re: Jewish prophecies of Messiah's arrival for circa 1st c.

Post by rakovsky »

neilgodfrey wrote:
rakovsky wrote:
neilgodfrey wrote:
You have not given any evidence at all for your claim that Jews generally believed or were preoccupied with a belief that a messiah was to come and rescue them. None.
Traditional NonChristian Judaism's teaching over the last two millenia of such a belief about a Moschiach ben David in the Tanakh is "evidence".
You are missing the argument here.

What you seem to be saying here (correct me if I am wrong) is that Jewish teaching of the last 2000 years is the same as it was in the early first century CE and that the Jews of the early first century CE, believing just what Jews have been teaching ever since, was what motivated them to be on the lookout for a messiah to come in their own time?
Yes, in addition to the motives that they were living under Roman conquest, along with the prophecies in the Tanakh.


I do not understand -- are you suggesting that for 2000 years Jews have all as a general religious characteristic been eagerly anticipating with the same fervour as those early first C Jews the messiah to come in their own life time?
No, and this is a different issue than what you put in your last quote, above. there is less fervor centuries after Bar Kohba was crushed. The rabbis in the Talmud said Messiah's coming is dated in Tanakhand so not to calculate when Messiah would come because people would think the time had passed.

This prophecy stuff was very 1st century. Same thing with "the scepter will not depart" in Genesis. Judah gave up monarchical politics and lost and gave up the death penalty power long long ago.

Long after the dates and timing stuff passed, and the Jews went into more exile and social disintegration, the fervor died down. So there was more fervor in the 1st c. than centuries previous in 350 BC when they had their own country and centuries later in 350 AD, long after Rome had already conquered them several times.

So the argument theses are what I underlined:
1. It's a general Christian-Jewish- secular Scholar - Muslimconsensus that 1st c. Jews had a concept of Messiah ben David.

2. People living under Roman conquest are going to want a savior king figure more than when they aren't under Roman conquest. Also, There's a ton mountain pile of direct and indirect evidence about Messiah like I put in my photo with captions a few page threads ago. So Jews in the 1st c. AD had a greater hope/expectation of a Messiah coming at that point than they did long before the 1st c., eg. in 350 AD or long after it.

Nothing hard at all for someone intelligent like yourself to understand under normal circumstances, I would expect.

My research on the prophecies of the Messiah's resurrection: http://rakovskii.livejournal.com
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neilgodfrey
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Re: Jewish prophecies of Messiah's arrival for circa 1st c.

Post by neilgodfrey »

rakovsky wrote:
neilgodfrey wrote:
You have not given any evidence at all for your claim that Jews generally believed or were preoccupied with a belief that a messiah was to come and rescue them. None.
Traditional NonChristian Judaism's teaching over the last two millenia of such a belief about a Moschiach ben David in the Tanakh is "evidence".
You are missing the argument here.
rakovsky wrote:
neilgodfrey wrote:What you seem to be saying here (correct me if I am wrong) is that Jewish teaching of the last 2000 years is the same as it was in the early first century CE and that the Jews of the early first century CE, believing just what Jews have been teaching ever since, was what motivated them to be on the lookout for a messiah to come in their own time?
Yes, in addition to the motives that they were living under Roman conquest, along with the prophecies in the Tanakh.
Well I don't know of any critical scholarship that supports your view. Moreover, you cannot assume that the general Palestinian population was as mindful and preoccupied with the scriptures as you are.

This is like trying to argue evolution with a creationist.

rakovsky wrote:
I do not understand -- are you suggesting that for 2000 years Jews have all as a general religious characteristic been eagerly anticipating with the same fervour as those early first C Jews the messiah to come in their own life time?
No, and this is a different issue than what you put in your last quote, above. there is less fervor centuries after Bar Kohba was crushed. The rabbis in the Talmud said Messiah's coming is dated in Tanakhand so not to calculate when Messiah would come because people would think the time had passed.

This prophecy stuff was very 1st century. Same thing with "the scepter will not depart" in Genesis. Judah gave up monarchical politics and lost and gave up the death penalty power long long ago.

Long after the dates and timing stuff passed, and the Jews went into more exile and social disintegration, the fervor died down. So there was more fervor in the 1st c. than centuries previous in 350 BC when they had their own country and centuries later in 350 AD, long after Rome had already conquered them several times.
This is all fantasy, purely imaginative. Historians need to work from sources, not imaginative ways to buttress their religious convictions.

rakovsky wrote:So the argument theses are what I underlined:
1. It's a general Christian-Jewish- secular Scholar - Muslimconsensus that 1st c. Jews had a concept of Messiah ben David.
A consensus among apologists and fundamentalists who never bother to keep up with critical scholarship, maybe. You have demonstrated no evidence of having read the arguments or evidence I have set out.
rakovsky wrote:2. People living under Roman conquest are going to want a savior king figure more than when they aren't under Roman conquest. Also, There's a ton mountain pile of direct and indirect evidence about Messiah like I put in my photo with captions a few page threads ago. So Jews in the 1st c. AD had a greater hope/expectation of a Messiah coming at that point than they did long before the 1st c., eg. in 350 AD or long after it.

Nothing hard at all for someone intelligent like yourself to understand under normal circumstances, I would expect.
You are not listening. You are ignoring the criticism set out against your claims and just finding new ways to repeat your claims while avoiding the critique against them.

Just like trying to argue evolution with a creationist. You don't accept the fundamentals of how historical inquiry works. You demonstrate no understanding of how historians use sources. Do you fear that the intellectual ways of critical scholarship will corrupt your faith?
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Re: Jewish prophecies of Messiah's arrival for circa 1st c.

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neilgodfrey wrote:
rakovsky wrote:So the argument theses are what I underlined:
1. It's a general Christian-Jewish- secular Scholar - Muslimconsensus that 1st c. Jews had a concept of Messiah ben David.
A consensus among apologists and fundamentalists who never bother to keep up with critical scholarship, maybe. You have demonstrated no evidence of having read the arguments or evidence I have set out.
rakovsky wrote:2. People living under Roman conquest are going to want a savior king figure more than when they aren't under Roman conquest. Also, There's a ton mountain pile of direct and indirect evidence about Messiah like I put in my photo with captions a few page threads ago. So Jews in the 1st c. AD had a greater hope/expectation of a Messiah coming at that point than they did long before the 1st c., eg. in 350 AD or long after it.

Nothing hard at all for someone intelligent like yourself to understand under normal circumstances, I would expect.
You are not listening. You are ignoring the criticism set out against your claims and just finding new ways to repeat your claims while avoiding the critique against them.
OK, so it looks like you are probably agreeing that if Jews did believe in a Messiah king, they would have a higher hope for him to come free them from Rome in the 1st c. when they were being occupied than to come free them when they weren't occupied.
I am not sure you are agreeing about that though, since you seem to be fighting everything else.

In the quote above, you are really making two claims, as far as I can tell.
1. Jews in the 1st c. even didn't have a concept of a Messiah ben David. That's a new idea for me from you.
2. Lacking such a concept, they didn't have heightened expectations. Your claim # 2. at least makes sense once one accepts #1.

Maybe #1 should be the topic of your new post to make things clearer. otherwise people will think you agree that there was a concept of Messiah and just there weren't greater hopes of that known concept fulfilling than before.

My research on the prophecies of the Messiah's resurrection: http://rakovskii.livejournal.com
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Re: Jewish prophecies of Messiah's arrival for circa 1st c.

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Just "thinking aloud" here . . . .

I have set out a set of specific criticisms challenging a conventional view (a view that includes details such as X and Y).

In responses by some, these criticisms are set aside for most part. What is set up in opposition to them is a big "But What About X and Y?!" X and Y prove the conventional wisdom to be true, it is said.

Now if my initial criticisms hold any validity at all, then it follows that X and Y must not be entirely valid. Yet to imagine any flaw in X and Y seems to be inconceivable. The evidence is supposedly "obvious", a "consensus", etc. To criticize X or Y is said to be the sign of an ill-motivated person.

So one's attachment to X and Y becomes immune from criticism. There is no need to address the specific criticisms because they are thought to be rendered null and void by X and Y.

Critics are thus deemed to be outside the playing field. They are psychologically disrupted and/or morally flawed, goes the view.

To engage with the criticisms is to engage meaninglessly with the psychologically/morally flawed on his or her own terms -- which is hardly a decent thing to do.

So the apologist for the conventional wisdom remains immune from criticism.
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Re: Jewish prophecies of Messiah's arrival for circa 1st c.

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rakovsky wrote: OK, so it looks like you are probably agreeing that if Jews did believe in a Messiah king, they would have a higher hope for him to come free them from Rome in the 1st c. when they were being occupied than to come free them when they weren't occupied.
No, I am arguing from the perspective of normative historical inquiry. What are our sources and what can we conclude from them?

rakovsky wrote:In the quote above, you are really making two claims, as far as I can tell.
1. Jews in the 1st c. even didn't have a concept of a Messiah ben David. That's a new idea for me from you.
2. Lacking such a concept, they didn't have heightened expectations. Your claim # 2. at least makes sense once one accepts #1.

Maybe #1 should be the topic of your new post to make things clearer. otherwise people will think you agree that there was a concept of Messiah and just there weren't greater hopes of that known concept fulfilling than before.
1. That is not what I said. I responded the way I did because I did not accept the overgeneralization of your statement. It was so generalized as to be meaningless. What Jews are we talking about? Scribal elites? Pharisees? Illiterate peasants and artisans? What do you mean by "a concept of messiah"? There were many concepts of different kinds of messiahs in the Second Temple period -- including in the Bible/OT. And my point is not about the existence of concepts among this or that group but about psycho-emotional attitudes, a cultural movement if you like. Not the same thing at all and one does not necessarily follow the other.

I suggest you read my post in Christian texts and try to get a fresh perspective of the point I am arguing.

You seem to be stuck in the belief that rabbinic Judaism was the religion of the general Jewish populace in the early first century CE. And your view of rabbinic Judaism itself is informed more by Christian apologetics than any serious study.

I have set out evidence that undermines this view but you simply keep avoiding it.
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