the puppet angel of the Hebrew Bible

[kennethgreifer]

I think that the angel of the L-rd in the Hebrew Bible that sometimes says "Thus says the L-rd..." and sometimes says "I" like it was G-d speaking is what I call a "puppet angel." Sometimes, it brings messages from G-d and sometimes I think G-d speaks through it like it was a puppet or a telephone.

Exodus 23:20-22 says that G-d will send an angel with His name in it and they should listen to it's voice and do all that G-d will speak. I think it means that G-d's presence (His name) is in the angel and they should listen to it's voice, but really G-d will be speaking through it's mouth. Isaiah 63:9 mentions the angel of G-d's presence. Genesis 32 says Jacob saw G-d face to face. I think it means that the angel he wrestled had G-d's presence (His name) in it and G-d spoke to him through it. I think "face to face" means that G-d spoke to Jacob in reality and not in a vision or a dream like prophecies usually happen.

Usually, people say that the angel spoke as G-d because G-d can appear in a human form or that the angel doesn't have to always say "thus says the L-rd..." to bring a message from G-d. I don't know if any one has ever said that the angel is really an angel that G-d can just speak through when He wants to like it was a puppet or telephone. So, it has His presence in it and it is still just an angel. I have more details about this in my first self-published book in a chapter about the angel of the L-rd.

I have put all of my ideas into four self-published books that can be read for free on my site: http://www.hebrewbiblequotes.com/

Kenneth Greifer

[iskander]

I think that the angel of the L-rd in the Hebrew Bible that sometimes says "Thus says the L-rd..." and sometimes says "I" like it was G-d speaking is what I call a "puppet angel." Sometimes, it brings messages from G-d and sometimes I think G-d speaks through it like it was a puppet or a telephone.

Exodus 23:20-22 says that G-d will send an angel with His name in it and they should listen to it's voice and do all that G-d will speak. I think it means that G-d's presence (His name) is in the angel and they should listen to it's voice, but really G-d will be speaking through it's mouth. Isaiah 63:9 mentions the angel of G-d's presence. Genesis 32 says Jacob saw G-d face to face. I think it means that the angel he wrestled had G-d's presence (His name) in it and G-d spoke to him through it. I think "face to face" means that G-d spoke to Jacob in reality and not in a vision or a dream like prophecies usually happen.

Usually, people say that the angel spoke as G-d because G-d can appear in a human form or that the angel doesn't have to always say "thus says the L-rd..." to bring a message from G-d. I don't know if any one has ever said that the angel is really an angel that G-d can just speak through when He wants to like it was a puppet or telephone. So, it has His presence in it and it is still just an angel. I have more details about this in my first self-published book in a chapter about the angel of the L-rd.

I have put all of my ideas into four self-published books that can be read for free on my site: http://www.hebrewbiblequotes.com/

Kenneth Greifer

The original religion of the Israelites decoded by your illuminating translations.
Professor Sommer is another pioneer!
How far apart from each other were the Christian and the Judaic theological beliefs?

In The Bodies of God and the World of Ancient Israel, Benjamin D. Sommer provides an answer to this difficult question as follows:

This study forces a revaluation of a common Jewish attitude towards Christianity. Some Jews regard Christianity's claims to be monotheistic with suspicion, both because the doctrine of the trinity ( how can three equal one? ) and because of Christianity's core belief that God took bodily form. What we have attempted to point out here is that biblical Israel knew very similar doctrines, and these doctrines did not disappear from Judaism after the biblical period....

No Jew sensitive to Judaism's own classical sources , however, can fault the theological model Christianity employs when it avows belief in a God who has an earthly body as well as a Holy Spirit and a heavenly manifestation, for that model, we have seen, is a perfectly Jewish one.

The Bodies of God and the World of Ancient Israel
Benjamin D. Sommer
Cambridge University Press; 1 edition (January 17, 2011)
ISBN-13: 978-1107422261
Page 135
viewtopic.php?f=6&t=1828

[kennethgreifer]

iskander,

Professor Sommer's opinions are not very different from what I have seen in many scholarly books and articles over the years. Most scholars say that G-d can appear as a man or an angel, and they all point out the same quotes in the Hebrew Bible.

Kenneth Greifer

[iskander]

iskander,

Professor Sommer's opinions are not very different from what I have seen in many scholarly books and articles over the years. Most scholars say that G-d can appear as a man or an angel, and they all point out the same quotes in the Hebrew Bible.

Kenneth Greifer

Thank you Kenneth,
How should I understand the importance of this passage?

In page 136 of The Bodies of God and the World of Ancient Israel, Benjamin Sommer writes,

The Maimonidean, of course, still has the right to reject Christianity's theological model; but many a modern Jew recognizes the extraordinarily strained nature of the hermeneutic through which Maimonides attempts to deny the corporeality of the biblical and rabbinic God . For such a Jew, Maimonides' rejection would also compel a rejection of most of the Written and Oral Torahs. It would entail , in other words, the creation of a new religion whose earliest sacred document would be found in the tenth-century C.E. philosophical writings of Maimonides' predecessor , Saadia Gaon.

[kennethgreifer]

iskander,

I don't know about what Maimonides and any other famous rabbi said about these Hebrew Bible quotes. I just look at the Hebrew Bible and how most commentators explain the quotes. Usually, they say that G-d can appear as a man or an angel or that the angel is just a messenger that doesn't always say "Thus says the L-rd."
I am not sure if you are discussing other quotes besides the ones about the angel. I am just talking about the angel right now.

Kenneth Greifer