Translations of Josephus

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John2
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Re: Translations of Josephus

Post by John2 »

I noticed some differences in translations of Josephus' comment about the "ambiguous oracle" in War 6.312 so I've been wondering what the Greek says and this seems like a good place to ask.

Whiston has "about that time" but I'm seeing that Mason and others have it more like "at that time." What is the Greek word that is being translated as "about" or "at" that time? "About" makes the timing seem somewhat flexible, but "at" seems less so. I don't know Greek so if anyone can help that would be great.
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Ben C. Smith
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Re: Translations of Josephus

Post by Ben C. Smith »

John2 wrote:I noticed some differences in translations of Josephus' comment about the "ambiguous oracle" in War 6.312 so I've been wondering what the Greek says and this seems like a good place to ask.

Whiston has "about that time" but I'm seeing that Mason and others have it more like "at that time." What is the Greek word that is being translated as "about" or "at" that time? "About" makes the timing seem somewhat flexible, but "at" seems less so. I don't know Greek so if anyone can help that would be great.
The phrase is κατά τον καιρόν εκείνον. Same as in Acts 19.23.
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John2
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Re: Translations of Josephus

Post by John2 »

Nice! Thanks, Ben. Geez, but I couldn't begin to decide what is the best way to translate κατά. What's your take?

http://biblehub.com/greek/2596.htm
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John2
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Re: Translations of Josephus

Post by John2 »

The sense I get from Acts 19:23 is more or less "about," and the context seems hard to pin down to a specific time. For example, 19:8-10 says:
Paul entered the synagogue and spoke boldly there for three months, arguing persuasively about the kingdom of God. But some of them became obstinate; they refused to believe and publicly maligned the Way. So Paul left them. He took the disciples with him and had discussions daily in the lecture hall of Tyrannus. This went on for two years, so that all the Jews and Greeks who lived in the province of Asia heard the word of the Lord.
Then 19:21-22 says:
After all this had happened, Paul decided to go to Jerusalem, passing through Macedonia and Achaia. “After I have been there,” he said, “I must visit Rome also.” He sent two of his helpers, Timothy and Erastus, to Macedonia, while he stayed in the province of Asia a little longer.
Then 19:23 says:
About that time there arose a great disturbance about the Way.

I would guess that kata/about refers to the time Paul was in Asia "a little longer," i.e., less than the two years that are mentioned in 19:10 above, but I don't think it can be pinned down to a specific date. So I reckon this is the sense in Josephus as well, that it means more or less around 66 CE, and not necessarily specifically 66 CE.
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John2
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Re: Translations of Josephus

Post by John2 »

Yeah, that has to be the sense, because he applies it to Vespasian because he was "appointed emperor in Judea," and that happened in 69 CE, three years after the war started. So it would have to mean "about" 66 CE, and if it is applicable to 69 CE it could be applicable to 63 CE, or even before that.
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DCHindley
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Re: Translations of Josephus

Post by DCHindley »

John2 wrote:I noticed some differences in translations of Josephus' comment about the "ambiguous oracle" in War 6.312 so I've been wondering what the Greek says and this seems like a good place to ask.

Whiston has "about that time" but I'm seeing that Mason and others have it more like "at that time." What is the Greek word that is being translated as "about" or "at" that time? "About" makes the timing seem somewhat flexible, but "at" seems less so. I don't know Greek so if anyone can help that would be great.
Not that I am an expert, but it goes like this:

ὡς (that) κατὰ (according to) τὸν (the) καιρὸν (appointed time) ἐκεῖνον (that) ἀπὸ (from/because of) τῆς (the) χώρας (region) αὐτῶν (theirs) τις (a certain one) ἄρξει (he will rule) τῆς (the) οἰκουμένης (world system)

Sorry about the choppiness. But it seems to say that the χρησμὸς ἀμφίβολος ("oracle that-can-be-interpreted-in-opposite-ways") specified that during a defined period of time a certain man from the Judean region would come to rule the world. There are numerous ways to interpret this, but Josephus could have been purposefully obscure, because there is no such prediction "to be found in the sacred writings" [ἐν τοῖς ἱεροῖς εὑρημένος γράμμασιν].

The defined time might suggest an interpretation of one of the "prophesies" in Daniel that calculates all those "sevens" to the mid to late 1st century CE, but that a leader should rise from Judean soil sounds not like something from sacred writings, but from one or more of the books and/or sections of the Sibylline Oracles that are now believed to have been written by Hellenized Judeans. Some of these do predict a world ruler arising from the Judeans to create a new world empire.

These Judean written Sibylline oracles (Book 3 mainly) had nothing to do with myths about "Illuminati" yanking the strings behind all that goes on, which I do not believe any ancient text even suggests, but these oracles do suggest that there was a yearning among some Hellenized Judeans for a change in empire, and a righteous/just empire to boot, the establishment of which should be directed by God through men of his choosing.

Book 3 of the Sibylline Oracles is probably online. Search for R H Charles, Apocrypha and Pseudepigrapha of the Old Testament (APOT), volume 2, Pseudepigrapha. This was published around 1913. A more comprehensive review of all the surviving Sibylline Oracles - Hellenized Pagan, Hellenized Judean & Christian - can be found in Charlesworth's Old Testament Pseudepigrapha (1980s). Offhand I do not remember which of the two volumes these oracles were in, but probably the first one.

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neilgodfrey
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Re: Translations of Josephus

Post by neilgodfrey »

DCHindley wrote: Sorry about the choppiness. But it seems to say that the χρησμὸς ἀμφίβολος ("oracle that-can-be-interpreted-in-opposite-ways") specified that during a defined period of time a certain man from the Judean region would come to rule the world. There are numerous ways to interpret this, but Josephus could have been purposefully obscure, because there is no such prediction "to be found in the sacred writings" [ἐν τοῖς ἱεροῖς εὑρημένος γράμμασιν].
The absence of specifics sets Josephus's prophecy in the same mould as the prophecies typically found in works of ancient historians who find all sorts of recollections of various prophecies and omens that precede a dramatic change in historical course of events. It's a typical tragic motif found in Greco-Roman and Jewish-Christian literature alike. Coincidentally have just posted on this point in another thread.
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arnoldo
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Re: Translations of Josephus

Post by arnoldo »

Here is another example of Josephus' use of chronology in his narrative.
https://books.google.com/books?id=FQPSB ... ed&f=false
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DCHindley
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Re: Translations of Josephus

Post by DCHindley »

It took about 2 weeks for delivery, but lo and behold, last Wednesday I received a full set of the 9 volume Loeb edition, and except for the dust covers being faded and in some places torn or missing corners, a loose binding on one volume, etc., the volumes are in pretty good shape. They were all, apparently, from the Bibliotheek Arnhem, Koningstraat, with the library catalogue number RW 281/143-151.

Since the bookshop name, antiquariaat ISIS (aka ISIS-books, Groningen, Netherlands), has the word "ISIS" in its business name (referring of course to the Hellenized Egyptian goddess), and the word has obtained such a bad reputation nowadays, at least among our country's present leadership (which tends to ignore the fact that "ISIL" is now the correct name for the caliphate when it spilled into Iraq from Syria), that our current US President, ever suspicious of Islamic extremist terrorists sneaking their literature into our country to radicalize our home-boys, probably has placed me on a terror watch list. :eek: Good thing I do not have to fly for my current job.

I double checked the publication dates:

1926 - Vol. I (1) - Life & Against Apion, with Index
1927 - Vol. II (2)- JW I-III (1-3) no index
1928 - Vol. III (3) - JW IV-VII (4-7) with Index to vols. 2 & 3
1930 - Vol. IV (4) - JA I-IV (1-4) no index
1934 - Vol. V (5) - JA V-VIII (5-8) no index
1937 - Vol. VI (6) - JA IX-XI (9-11) no index
1943 - Vol. VII (7) - JA XII-XIV (12-14) no index
1963 - Vol. VIII (8) - JA XV-XVII (15-17) no index
1965 - Vol. IX (9) - JA XVIII-XX (18-20) with Index of names & places (not generally subjects) to Loeb vols. 1-9

As all the Loeb volumes, except Vols. 1 & 6 above, had their contents jiggered over time as they expended from 9 to 10 and then 13 volumes, it should be noted that this 9 volume set was apparently last published in 1969.

I have updated the table in my earlier post, where necessary.
http://www.earlywritings.com/forum/view ... 948#p63948

DCH
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