Qumran Cave 12?

Discussion about the Hebrew Bible, Septuagint, pseudepigrapha, Philo, Josephus, Talmud, Dead Sea Scrolls, archaeology, etc.
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StephenGoranson
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Qumran Cave 12?

Post by StephenGoranson » Wed Feb 08, 2017 6:46 am

http://www.haaretz.com/archaeology/1.770515
Formerly held scrolls? Only a blank piece of "parchment," jars, etc. found

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John T
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Re: Qumran Cave 12?

Post by John T » Wed Feb 08, 2017 8:06 am

Perhaps, the removed scrolls are stored in a Swiss safe deposit box?

"Nearly 70 years after the discovery of the world's oldest biblical manuscripts, the Palestinian family who originally sold them to scholars and institutions is now quietly marketing the leftovers — fragments the family says it has kept in a Swiss safe deposit box all these years."...A.P.

read more: http://www.haaretz.com/jewish/news/litt ... e-1.525919

Try to remember, the Bethlehem antiquities dealer Kando, was found to have more scrolls (not just fragments) than he first admitted to the authorities.
"It is useless to attempt to reason a man out of a thing he was never reasoned into."...Jonathan Swift

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DCHindley
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Re: Qumran Cave 12?

Post by DCHindley » Wed Feb 08, 2017 8:15 am

StephenGoranson wrote:http://www.haaretz.com/archaeology/1.770515
Formerly held scrolls? Only a blank piece of "parchment," jars, etc. found
A shame, but who knows what was found as several of the known DSS were not discovered in situ.

I think it is notable that the looters did not take the blank parchment roll. It would suggest that they were unaware of anyone wanting to create fakes, at least in the 1950s.

That does not mean there were not other blank scrolls, perhaps meant to be used as fresh writing material by whatever group deposited the remains, that might have been taken as well. I would have liked to see more context, like the number of jars found, number that were broken and intact, any lamps or other goods like grains that may have indicated temporary inhabitation, or fragments of scrolls that were removed (I'd think that they would be brittle and pieces must have fallen off as they are handled by the looters). Any coins, "intrusive" or not?

DCH

StephenGoranson
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Re: Qumran Cave 12?

Post by StephenGoranson » Wed Feb 08, 2017 9:23 am

photos:
Photos for download: (Credit for all photos to Casey L. Olson and Oren Gutfeld):
-Archaeologists Oren Gutfeld & Ahiad Ovadia survey cave https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/ur ... BVjF_KI&e=
-Archaeologist Ahiad Ovadia digs carefully in cave https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/ur ... 2uY85Ag&e=
-Ziad Abu Ganem and student filter material from cave https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/ur ... 5IaUYhI&e=
-Fault cliff and cave entrance on the left https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/ur ... Us9H39M&e=
-Fragments of jars that contained stolen scrolls https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/ur ... d3Hqt9Q&e=
-Remnant of scroll https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/ur ... 4PxwNvQ&e=
-Remnant of scroll when removed from jar https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/ur ... 0kTQ2Tg&e=
-Neolithic flint tools found in cave https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/ur ... oJJJqIY&e=
-Cloth that was used for wrapping the scrolls https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/ur ... 7E11PnE&e=
-Seal made of carnelian stone found in cave https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/ur ... ThUzotw&e=
-Filtering materials from the cave https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/ur ... hmx1lSw&e=

StephenGoranson
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Re: Qumran Cave 12?

Post by StephenGoranson » Sun Feb 12, 2017 6:19 am

http://news.nd.edu/news/new-dead-sea-sc ... olar-says/

Notre Dame News

February 10, 2017

New Dead Sea Scroll cave reports may be 'premature,' scholar says

Brittany Collins Kaufman

Archaeologists on Wednesday (Feb. 8) announced the discovery of what’s billed as a new Dead Sea Scrolls cave, the first such cave found since 1956. The archaeologists reported finding broken pottery jars that once held scrolls, along with lids and other tools, in the cave near a site called Khirbet Qumran. The parchment scrolls had been looted years earlier, archaeologists said.

While some observers are hailing this find as the 12th Dead Sea Scrolls cave, James VanderKam, a leading Dead Sea Scrolls scholar and John A. O’Brien Professor Emeritus of Hebrew Scriptures at the University of Notre Dame, cautions that the findings need to be placed “in context.”

“In 1952, after the earliest scrolls finds, archaeologists made a survey of hundreds of caves and openings in the general vicinity of Khirbet Qumran,” VanderKam says. “Some 230 of them contained nothing of interest, but 26 housed pottery like that found in the first scrolls cave. The most recent find appears to be another one like those explored in 1952, although it does seem to have more direct evidence that scrolls were at one time lodged in the cave.”

VanderKam notes that the discovery is intriguing, but says more needs to be determined from the archaeologists’ findings.

“As with any archaeological discovery, it is great to have the new information. It is also of considerable interest that the cave is in the Qumran area,” he says. “However, given the fact that other caves in the district, besides the 11 that held the Dead Sea Scrolls, contained pottery of the same sort as Qumran Cave 1, it seems a bit premature to call it Qumran Cave 12. The people of the scrolls apparently used a fairly extensive area around Khirbet Qumran, so it is not surprising if there would be evidence of their presence in additional nearby caves.”

“I look forward to learning more details about the finds in the cave, such as the dates of the various items discovered. And, if scrolls were once stored in the jars and have been removed, I really hope they can be located and made available for study.”

VanderKam’s research in the past 25 years has focused on the Dead Sea Scrolls and related literature, and he is a member of the editorial committee that prepared the scrolls for publication. He has edited 13 volumes in the official series “Discoveries in the Judaean Desert,” is one of the two editors-in-chief of the Encyclopedia of the Dead Sea Scrolls and sits on the editorial board of “Dead Sea Discoveries.” He is the author of prize-winning books including “The Dead Sea Scrolls Today,” “The Meaning of the Dead Sea Scrolls,” “An Introduction to Early Judaism” and “The Dead Sea Scrolls and the Bible.”

(HT, Joseph Lauer)

StephenGoranson
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Re: Qumran Cave 12?

Post by StephenGoranson » Thu Jan 17, 2019 9:40 am

"...in the last season...But the find turned out not to be a scroll after all."
Possibly this may refer to the small (and maybe thick?) piece of skin that was previously publicized.
Haaretz, Jan. 16, 2019

StephenGoranson
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Re: Qumran Cave 12?

Post by StephenGoranson » Sat Jan 26, 2019 2:51 am

Now (Jan.24) a news article labels a photo of this piece of skin as
"This remnant of a casing for a two-millennia-old scroll was found in Cave 53 at Qumran and, archaeologists say, belongs to the Second Temple-period Dead Sea Scrolls, February 8, 2017. (Courtesy Hebrew University)"
https://www.timesofisrael.com/in-the-qu ... oll-caves/
It is not clear why they now call it a Scroll casing.

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