Another Temple Question

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Kris
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Joined: Wed May 14, 2014 5:48 am

Another Temple Question

Post by Kris » Sat May 13, 2017 7:43 am

What was the Jewish thought on rebuilding the temple? I know the Christian perspective-- but I have seen articles that state that the Jews believe it will be rebuilt at the end of days by the Messiah. What texts say this? Is their end of days different than the traditional Christian one?

Kris
Posts: 202
Joined: Wed May 14, 2014 5:48 am

Re: Another Temple Question

Post by Kris » Sun May 14, 2017 8:00 am

This is a quote from the Wiki page that I was reading:

Jewish texts predict that the Mount will be the site of the Third Temple, which will be rebuilt with the coming of the Jewish Messiah. A number of vocal Jewish groups now advocate building the Third Holy Temple without delay in order to bring to pass God's "end-time prophetic plans for Israel and the entire world."[130]

I am trying to figure out which Jewish texts address this and what they say. Can any ne help?

semiopen
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Re: Another Temple Question

Post by semiopen » Fri May 26, 2017 5:57 pm

The concept of a third temple is more or less Rabbinic. It would have been difficult to develop this view before the destruction of the second temple. I'm not sure exactly when this got to be outrageously stupid -

Third_Temple
Orthodox Judaism believes in the rebuilding of a Third Temple and the resumption of Korban (sacrificial worship), although there is disagreement about how rebuilding should take place. Orthodox scholars and rabbinic authorities generally believe that rebuilding should occur in the era of the Jewish Messiah at the hand of Divine Providence, although a minority position, following the opinion of Maimonides, holds that Jews should endeavour to rebuild the temple themselves, whenever possible.[1] Orthodox authorities generally predict the resumption of the complete traditional system of sacrifices, but Conservative, Reform, and Reconstructionist authorities disavow all belief in the resumption of Korban.
This is a greater fool game. Sacrificing animals is stupid nowadays, but the superficial enlightened view of the Conservatives, Reform, etc is even more pointless because why build a temple if you're not going to sacrifice something?

Once you've settled on a messiah appearing at some point, there is some logic that a temple should be associated with him one way or another, but I don't think anything can be found on this topic earlier than the Rabbis.

semiopen
Posts: 330
Joined: Sat Mar 08, 2014 6:27 pm

Re: Another Temple Question

Post by semiopen » Wed May 31, 2017 5:17 am

Regarding "hints" about the three temples in the Pentateuch -

The major examples are the three patriarchs.

The first temple is associated with Abraham on account of the Binding_of_Isaac. Abraham is also associated with the morning service Shacharit
Shacharit according to tradition was identified as a time of prayer by Abraham, as Genesis 19:27 states, "Abraham arose early in the morning," which traditionally is the first Shacharit.[3] However, Abraham's prayer did not become a standardized prayer. The sages of the Great Assembly may have formulated blessings and prayers that later became part of Shacharit.[4] However, the siddur or prayerbook as we know it was not fully formed until around the 7th century C.E. The prayers said still vary among congregations and Jewish communities.

Shacharit was also instituted in part as a replacement of the daily morning Temple service after the destruction of the Temple.
The second temple is associated with Isaac
And Isaac went out walking in the field toward evening and, looking up, he saw camels approaching. (Gen. 24:63 TNK)
The older JPS goes -
And Isaac went out to meditate in the field at the eventide; and he lifted up his eyes, and saw, and, behold, there were camels coming. (Gen. 24:63 JPS)
This is also associated with Mincha
The Talmud states that Mincha was originated by Isaac, and described in Genesis 24:63 by the words "Isaac went out to converse in the field." where the verb "converse" (שוח suwach) refers to with God.[1]
The third temple is Jacob at Beth-El -
And this stone, which I have set up as a pillar, shall be God's abode; and of all that You give me, I will set aside a tithe for You." (Gen. 28:22 TNK)
Needless to say, this is also associated with Maariv
Another explanation is that as the third prayer, Maariv corresponds to Jacob, the third patriarch. Support is brought from Genesis 28:11, which says that when Jacob left his hometown of Beersheva to go to Haran, he "met at the place for the sun had set." The Talmud understands this to mean that Jacob prayed at night, and hence instituted Maariv.[3] Some suggest that he first started reciting the prayer after he fled from his homeland, and as a result, the prayer service has become associated with trust in God.[4]
My Rabbi (Chabad) often mentions Pentateuch hints in his sermons. I once asked a knowledgeable friend if these were collected in a book and he told me they were but I've never found the book.

Ironically, the three events probably take place in wildly different places. Moriah is probably the most reasonable one to locate at Jerusalem but still is quite dubious -
Most modern biblical scholars, however, regard the name as a reference to the Amorites, having lost the initial a via aphesis; the name is thus interpreted as meaning land of the Amorites. This agrees with the Septuagint, where, for example, 2 Chronicles 3:1 refers to the location as Ἀμωρία – Amōriā. This would give it the same etymological root as Hamor, a person's name in the narrative at Genesis 34 which concerns Shechem.[7] Some scholars also identify it with Moreh, the location near Shechem at which Abraham built an altar, according to Genesis 12:6. Hence a number of scholars believe that Moriah refers to a hill near Shechem, supporting the Samaritan belief that the near-sacrifice of Isaac occurred on Mount Gerizim – a location near Shechem.[7]

Kris
Posts: 202
Joined: Wed May 14, 2014 5:48 am

Re: Another Temple Question

Post by Kris » Wed May 31, 2017 7:28 am

Semiopen,

Thanks for your responses. From what I got out of your first post, most third temple thoughts come into play after the second temple was destroyed and the existing Rabbis needed to find some understanding in what was happening. So, of course, a third temple would be on the horizon, as you said, when the Messiah would come.

You second post confused me a little. Is this more of the thought process of the Rabbis after the 70's ad trying to find some type of signs that there would be a third temple eventually-- the "hints" you provided seem kind of like they are being interpreted into something to make it fit. There are three prayers-- thus three temples? Or three Patriarchs, thus three temples? Do you think this is kind of dubious? And again, did this thought process only come into play after the second temple was destroyed?

semiopen
Posts: 330
Joined: Sat Mar 08, 2014 6:27 pm

Re: Another Temple Question

Post by semiopen » Wed May 31, 2017 6:40 pm

I meant to bring up the patriarch story when making my first post but wasn't satisfied with it, so it's not surprising it might be confusing.

Mostly I put it in because it's the most interesting thing from the Torah relating to this subject that my Rabbi expounded on. The sources are all Talmudic so it sort of supports the Rabbinic era point I made in the first post. Also quite fascinating (or coincidental I suppose) is that the patriarch verses match up well with the prayer services.

I'm not clear on the actual date that the three daily prayers started. It seems it could have been before the destruction of the second temple but I'd want odds to take that position in a bet.

Basically the services are composed of some psalms, the Amidah, the Shema_Yisrael (with an * for Maariv), and several recitals of the Kaddish. Except for the psalms, these are all (sort of) Rabbinic prayers.
The language of the Amidah most likely comes from the mishnaic period,[9] both before and after the destruction of the Temple (70 CE) as the probable time of its composition and compilation. In the time of the Mishnah, it was considered unnecessary to prescribe its text and content. This may have been simply because the language was well known to the Mishnah's authors.[10] The Mishnah may also not have recorded a specific text because of an aversion to making prayer a matter of rigor and fixed formula, an aversion that continued at least to some extent throughout the Talmudic period, as evidenced by the opinions of R. Eliezer (Talmud Ber. 29b) and R. Simeon ben Yohai (Ab. ii. 13). R. Jose held that one should include something new in one's prayer every day (Talmud Yerushalmi Ber. 8b), a principle said to have been carried into practice by R. Eleazar and R. Abbahu (ib.). Prayer was not to be read as one would read a letter (ib.).

However, even the talmudic sources reflect such diverse opinions including the one attributing the formulation of the Amidah to the "men of the Great Synagogue" (Ber.33a, Meg. 17b), namely to the early Second Temple period, as opposed to one that explicitly ascribes the arrangement of the prayer to the activity of Rabban Gamliel in the post-destruction era at Yavneh (Ber. 28b).[11]
Great Synagogue refers to the Great_Assembly. My guess is that this never happened, although I don't consider myself a "modern scholar" as mentioned in the quote.
an assembly of 120 scribes, sages, and prophets, in the period from the end of the Biblical prophets since the early Second Temple period to the early Hellenistic period. It comprised such prophets as Haggai, Zechariah, Malachi (who is Ezra), Daniel, Hananiah, Mishael, Azariah, Nehemiah b. Hachaliah, Mordechai and Zerubabel b. Shaaltiel, among others.[1] Sometimes, the Great Assembly is simply designated as "Ezra and his court of law" (Beit Din).[2]

Among the developments in Judaism that are attributed to them are the fixing of the Jewish Biblical canon, including the books of Ezekiel, Daniel, Esther, and the Twelve Minor Prophets; the introduction of the Feast of Purim; and the institution of the prayer known as the "Shemoneh 'Esreh" as well as the synagogal prayers, rituals, and benedictions.

Some modern scholars question whether the Great Assembly ever existed as an institution as such. Louis Jacobs, while not endorsing this view, remarks that "references in the [later] Rabbinic literature to the Men of the Great Synagogue can be taken to mean that ideas, rules, and prayers, seen to be pre-Rabbinic but post-biblical, were often fathered upon them".[3]
Originally, the Shema consisted of only one verse: Deuteronomy 6:4 (see Talmud Sukkah 42a and Berachot 13b). The recitation of the Shema in the liturgy, however, consists of three portions: Deuteronomy 6:4–9, 11:13-21, and Numbers 15:37–41
The oldest version of the Kaddish is found in the Siddur of Rab Amram Gaon, c. 900. Shira Schoenberg observes that "The first mention of mourners saying Kaddish at the end of the service is in a 13th century halakhic writing by Isaac ben Moses of Vienna, the Or Zarua (literally "Light is Sown"). The Kaddish at the end of the service became designated as Kaddish Yatom or Mourner's Kaddish (literally, "Orphan's Kaddish").[1]
Just brought it up because it's interesting to me and seemed pertinent. It seems probable that the three prayer interpretation came first and that the three temple interpretation was dreamed up later - maybe much later - always something to look up.

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