suffering servant

[theterminator]

hello people

in the verses which talk about the suffering servant , is there any indication that the ss is free from sin?

[Diogenes the Cynic]

Kind of, but not categorically. Isaiah 53:9 says, "he had done no violence, neither was any deceit in his mouth."

Bear in mind, though, that the Old Testament (and Judaism in general) has no concept of original sin in the first place, and sees lots of people as righteous. Also bear in mind that the servant is Israel as a whole, not an individual person.

[beowulf]

hello people

in the verses which talk about the suffering servant , is there any indication that the ss is free from sin?

According to Raphael Patai. The Messiah Texts, page166-167
Wayne State University Press. Detroit, 1979
ISBN 139780814318508

“But Moses died before he could lead the Children of Israel into the Land of Promise. Consequently, for the parallel to be complete, the Messiah, too, had to die before accomplishing his great task of Ultimate Redemption...”



Judaism has redefined its beliefs, liturgy and prayers to meet the challenge of Christianity and Islam.


The suffering servant was in early Judaism often understood as a suffering man. If Christianity wishes to interpret the suffering servant as the suffering of only one man they can do that and be right. Christians have the same right to freely interpret the word of god as any other man or woman on this earth and that include the Jews,


The current rabbinic interpretation is the Judaic interpretation and the Christian interpretation is the Christian interpretation.

[Diogenes the Cynic]

The Jews WROTE it, bro. It's not open for interpretation. The suffering servant is a poetic personification of Israel and that's it Any alternate interpretations, Rabbinic or Christian (ESPECIALLY Christian) are contrived.

[beowulf]

The Christians WROTE it, sis. It's not open for interpretation. The suffering servant is a poetic personification of Humanity and that's it. Any alternate interpretations, Sceptic or Mythicist (ESPECIALLY Mythicist) are contrived.

[Diogenes the Cynic]

I fail to understand whatever point you're trying to make.

[beowulf]

Judaism and Christianity are two different religions...

[Diogenes the Cynic]

Right. And the book of Isaiah was written by only one of those religions before the other religion ever existed. The authors of Isaiah never heard of Jesus and Deutero-Isaiah had no Messiah in mind when he wrote the Suffering Servant poem. He was talking about Israel. He says so explicitly more than once. 'You aare my servant, Israel." No Messiah is ever mentioned.

[beowulf]

So what?

The Hebrew Bible is the word of God. The Hebrew Bible says there is only one God. God belongs to the whole of Humanity .

God speaks to humans in many languages.

The NT is another understanding of the same unique God.
Islam is yet another understanding of the same God
The Reformation is yet another understanding of the same God.

The Hebrew Bible itself was yet another interpretation of the God known in the region where those people lived

If a Judaic says to a Christian, “your interpretation is wrong”, the Christian responds, “I know you are not a Christian, but we can be friends. “

[semiopen2]

God belongs to the whole of Humanity .

No, no the other way! But in any case, Christians are remarkably bad at interpreting the Hebrew bible.

I found this on Chaim.org

A reformed ministry to the Jewish people

Officially Recognized by the PCA (Presbyterian Church in America)

http://www.chaim.org/isaiah53.htm

This amazing passage from the Hebrew Prophets was written over 700 years before the birth of Jesus.

An unfortunate way to start, the writer immediately loses any credibility (at least in my view).

They link to a page that goes into Rabbinic opinion - http://www.chaim.org/rabbis.htm

but this gives some cherry-picked quotes that are moreover not very clear -

Isaiah_53 is maybe a better discussion of Jewish views. The wiki gives http://www.jewsforjudaism.org/knowledge/isaiah_53/

This is kind of like Arnoldo and the two asses in Zecharia, even if the passage is Messianic, with its implication that the Messiah must suffer (like a human scapegoat) it's not like Yoshke or his publicists wouldn't have known about this prophecy.