Karaism and Qumran

Discussion about the Hebrew Bible, Septuagint, pseudepigrapha, Philo, Josephus, Talmud, Dead Sea Scrolls, archaeology, etc.
User avatar
Secret Alias
Posts: 7851
Joined: Sun Apr 19, 2015 8:47 am

Karaism and Qumran

Post by Secret Alias » Fri Oct 20, 2017 3:26 am

“Finally, from so little sleeping and so much reading, his brain dried up and he went completely out of his mind.”
― Miguel de Cervantes Saavedra, Don Quixote

User avatar
spin
Posts: 2066
Joined: Sat Oct 05, 2013 10:44 pm
Location: Nowhere

Re: Karaism and Qumran

Post by spin » Fri Oct 20, 2017 4:18 pm

Tangentially, great scholar Louis Ginzberg argued till he was blue in the face that the DSS were medieval and connected with the Karaites. (That was well before the batteries of C14 testing.)
Dysexlia lures • ⅔ of what we see is behind our eyes

User avatar
Secret Alias
Posts: 7851
Joined: Sun Apr 19, 2015 8:47 am

Re: Karaism and Qumran

Post by Secret Alias » Fri Oct 20, 2017 6:49 pm

I've never even heard a plausible explanation for who the Karaites are, how they survived. My likely guess is Egypt. That might even explain the 'Zadokite document' being in the Cairo geniza. The text likely would have been of interest to the Karaites given its rejection of the Pharisees. Kirkisani may well have known this document. He refers to Zadok as the founder of the Zadokites, as “the first to expose the errors of the Rabbanites." He reports that Zadok produced no proof for anything that he claimed "except for one thing, namely, the prohibition of marrying one’s niece, which he deduced from her being analogous to the paternal and maternal aunt." This fits very well with the exposition in the Qumran text.
Last edited by Secret Alias on Fri Oct 20, 2017 7:00 pm, edited 1 time in total.
“Finally, from so little sleeping and so much reading, his brain dried up and he went completely out of his mind.”
― Miguel de Cervantes Saavedra, Don Quixote

User avatar
Secret Alias
Posts: 7851
Joined: Sun Apr 19, 2015 8:47 am

Re: Karaism and Qumran

Post by Secret Alias » Fri Oct 20, 2017 6:59 pm

On the connection of the community with Egypt:
Al-Qirqisani curiously continues his report by describing the figure of Zadok (cf. the Zadokite Document, i.e. the Damascus Document, the Tomb of Zadok mentioned in the Copper Scroll, the Teacher of the Righteousness Moreh ha-Zedek/Zadok - the leading figure in the Qumran texts and finally the Oniads as the last Zadokites living as refugees in Egypt). From al-Qirqisani we may gather a clear impression that there were members who belonged to the Magharians in Egypt. The great majority of the ancient text finds hidden in jars have also been discovered from Egypt. J. T. Milik found out already in the late 1940s that one of the Qumran scroll jars had parallels at Deir el-Medinah in Egypt, with papyri dating from 171 to 104 B.C.,76 showing that the type was in use already in the second century B.C. in Egypt.https://books.google.com/books?id=36PXA ... kQ6AEIKDAA
I find these sorts of connections with the Karaites and Egypt far more convincing than all the pseudo-Eisenman stuff normally spewed in the forum.
“Finally, from so little sleeping and so much reading, his brain dried up and he went completely out of his mind.”
― Miguel de Cervantes Saavedra, Don Quixote

User avatar
Secret Alias
Posts: 7851
Joined: Sun Apr 19, 2015 8:47 am

Re: Karaism and Qumran

Post by Secret Alias » Fri Oct 20, 2017 7:02 pm

Of course the alternative theory is that the came to Egypt from Babylonia in the tenth century - https://books.google.com/books?id=2Ef6o ... pt&f=false
“Finally, from so little sleeping and so much reading, his brain dried up and he went completely out of his mind.”
― Miguel de Cervantes Saavedra, Don Quixote

John2
Posts: 1387
Joined: Fri May 16, 2014 4:42 pm

Re: Karaism and Qumran

Post by John2 » Fri Oct 20, 2017 7:09 pm

Stephan wrote:
The text likely would have been of interest to the Karaites given its rejection of the Pharisees.
I suspect that was the case as well. As for how the Karaites got the Damascus Document, it may have been through the discovery of DSS c. 800 CE, as recorded by Bishop Timotheos, which is around the same time that Karaism began.
... So much for that. We have learned(?) from trustworthy Jews who had been instructed as catechumens into Christianity that 10 years ago in the region of Jericho books had been found in a cave. It happened that the dog of a hunting Arab that was following an animal entered a hole/cave and did not come out. Its owner followed it and found in the cliff a little house containing many books. The hunter went to Jerusalem and informed the Jews. They came en masse and found the books of the old (Testament) and others in Hebraic writing. And since the narrator was knowledgeable about writing and was learned, I asked him about the many passages in our New Testament that seem to be derived from the Old, but nothing is found there either by us Christians nor by the Jews. He said, they exist and are up there.

http://www.theology.edu/b451.htm
You can't overlook the lack, Jack, of any other highway to ride, it's got no signs or dividing lines and very few rules to guide.

User avatar
Secret Alias
Posts: 7851
Joined: Sun Apr 19, 2015 8:47 am

Re: Karaism and Qumran

Post by Secret Alias » Fri Oct 20, 2017 7:13 pm

Al Baumgarten (as always) has an interesting and intelligent take on the relationship between Karaites and Jews and the Qumran literature. Worth the read - https://www.academia.edu/947390/Karaite ... st_Century
Last edited by Secret Alias on Fri Oct 20, 2017 7:21 pm, edited 1 time in total.
“Finally, from so little sleeping and so much reading, his brain dried up and he went completely out of his mind.”
― Miguel de Cervantes Saavedra, Don Quixote

User avatar
Secret Alias
Posts: 7851
Joined: Sun Apr 19, 2015 8:47 am

Re: Karaism and Qumran

Post by Secret Alias » Fri Oct 20, 2017 7:14 pm

which is around the same time that Karaism began
??? Where do you get that Karaism 'began' in such a late period? Oh let me guess their enemies. Like when the origin of the Samaritans were said to be through interbreeding ... by their enemies.
“Finally, from so little sleeping and so much reading, his brain dried up and he went completely out of his mind.”
― Miguel de Cervantes Saavedra, Don Quixote

User avatar
Secret Alias
Posts: 7851
Joined: Sun Apr 19, 2015 8:47 am

Re: Karaism and Qumran

Post by Secret Alias » Fri Oct 20, 2017 7:16 pm

In any event John2. If you do anything 'Bible-related' tonight please read Baumgarten's excellent article on the nexus at work yet. This is how real scholars work, operate. While researching Morton Smith's friendship with Bickerman I corresponded frequently with him and got acquainted with his work. Really smart guy.
“Finally, from so little sleeping and so much reading, his brain dried up and he went completely out of his mind.”
― Miguel de Cervantes Saavedra, Don Quixote

John2
Posts: 1387
Joined: Fri May 16, 2014 4:42 pm

Re: Karaism and Qumran

Post by John2 » Fri Oct 20, 2017 7:59 pm

??? Where do you get that Karaism 'began' in such a late period? Oh let me guess their enemies. Like when the origin of the Samaritans were said to be through interbreeding ... by their enemies.
Yes, that's what I mean. But if we assume that Karaism goes back before the eighth or ninth century CE, the discovery of DSS mentioned by Timotheos could still be the way that Karaites came to possess the Damascus Document. Or an earlier possibility would be the discovery of DSS in Origen's time, which Eusebius mentions in EH 6.16.1-3:
So earnest and assiduous was Origen's research into the divine words that he learned the Hebrew language, and procured as his own the original Hebrew Scriptures which were in the hands of the Jews. He investigated also the works of other translators of the Sacred Scriptures besides the Seventy. And in addition to the well-known translations of Aquila, Symmachus, and Theodotion, he discovered certain others which had been concealed from remote times—in what out-of-the-way corners I know not—and by his search he brought them to light.

Since he did not know the authors, he simply stated that he had found this one in Nicopolis near Actium and that one in some other place.

In the Hexapla of the Psalms, after the four prominent translations, he adds not only a fifth, but also a sixth and seventh. He states of one of these that he found it in a jar in Jericho in the time of Antoninus, the son of Severus.
Or maybe the Damascus Document got to Egypt (and eventually to the Karaites) via the Sicarii who fled to Egypt after the fall of Masada, as Josephus mentions in War. 7.10.1,
Yet did this war afford disturbances and dangerous disorders even in places very far remote from Judea; for still it came to pass that many Jews were slain at Alexandria in Egypt; for as many of the Sicarii as were able to fly thither, out of the seditious wars in Judea, were not content to have saved themselves, but must needs be undertaking to make new disturbances.
In any event, this is a great subject and I will look into it more, including all your links.
You can't overlook the lack, Jack, of any other highway to ride, it's got no signs or dividing lines and very few rules to guide.

Post Reply

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: MrMacSon and 16 guests