The Mishna, etc

Discussion about the Hebrew Bible, Septuagint, pseudepigrapha, Philo, Josephus, Talmud, Dead Sea Scrolls, archaeology, etc.
andrewcriddle
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Re: The Mishna, etc

Post by andrewcriddle » Sat Nov 11, 2017 5:20 am

Secret Alias wrote:
Fri Nov 10, 2017 10:04 am
This is silly. Paul isn't likely a historical character at least as described in Acts. He wasn't friends with famous rabbis from rabbinic literature. You should be writing those shitty fictional narratives that profit off the incredulity of American evangelicals. Clearly - and I mean CLEARLY - someone in the middle of the second century wrote a fictional portrait of the author of the Pauline epistles which integrated the author into the Pharisaic stream of thought. There is nothing 'Pharisaic' about Paul's thought. Acts is a fiction and the Pauline epistles as we now have them have been corrupted by the same tradition that accepted Acts in order to make Paul seem palatable to audiences outside his original tradition (= Marcionism).

.............................................
Formally speaking one can discuss the halakha presupposed by Acts' account of Paul irrespective of ones views on the historical value of Acts.

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Secret Alias
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Re: The Mishna, etc

Post by Secret Alias » Sat Nov 11, 2017 8:25 am

If the Mishnah is faithful to Pharaic thought - yes. But if the Mishnah is a mishmash of opinions, an ecumenical document, not so easily. Nor again if it is an invented fiction.
“Finally, from so little sleeping and so much reading, his brain dried up and he went completely out of his mind.”
― Miguel de Cervantes Saavedra, Don Quixote

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MrMacSon
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Re: The Mishna, etc

Post by MrMacSon » Sat Nov 11, 2017 2:04 pm

The other things to throw in the mix is (1) "an 'additional' or 'supplementary' halakhic or aggadic tradition", the Tosefta. Moreover, "there may once have been other such collections of tannaitic halakhot and aggadot, the Tosefta is the only such collection to have come down to us".
... the Tosefta may be older than the Mishnah, and that it preserves a point in history before one legal position became mainstream. Bar Ilan University professor Shamma Friedman has developed Y. N. Epstein’s (1878-1942) hypothesis that an earlier draft of the Mishnah served as the source material for both works, and that the Tosefta more closely resembles this earlier draft.

According to a similar theory, advanced by Jewish Theological Seminary professor Judith Hauptman, the Tosefta was a commentary on this proto-Mishnah and was in circulation when the Mishnah was composed.

And, (2) there is another "group of tannaitic expositions on four books of the Pentateuch": Midreshei Halakah (Heb. מִדְךְשׁי הֲלָכָה; "Halakhic Midrashim"). While "[t]here is only a single whole extant ḤM on each of these four books" -
.... *Mekhilta de-Rabbi Ishmael on Exodus (MY), *Sifra on Leviticus, *Sifrei on Numbers (SN), and *Sifrei on Deuteronomy (SD). Three other midrashim have been partially reconstructed from Genizah fragments, and from citations by rishonim (medieval authorities): *Mekhilta de-Rabbi Simeon ben Yoḥai on Exodus (MS), *Sifrei Zuta on Numbers (SZN), and *Mekhilta on Deuteronomy (MD). Passages from an additional tannaitic midrash on the book of Deuteronomy, known as *Sifrei Zuta on Deuteronomy (SZD), were recently discovered.

http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/midreshei-halakhah
- there could well have been others at the time.


Robert M Price, in The Amazing Colossal Apostle: The Search for the Historical Paul, cites Martyn's reference to the Tosefta in relation to the account of Ananias healing and baptizing Saul of Tarsus -
It is worth speculating whether Luke[-Acts] may have had some Grundschrift (underlying story) for the account of Ananias healing and baptizing Saul of Tarsus, though an unexpected one. As James Louis Martyn pointed out, the story in John chapter 9 of the blind man healed by Jesus and being excommunicated from the synagogue very likely reflected Jewish controversies over whether Jews might accept the help of Christian healers when all else failed. Martyn adduced two rabbinical anecdotes.[31]
  • It happened with Rabbi Elazar ben Damah, whom a serpent bit, that Jacob, a man of Kefar Soma, came to heal him in the name of Yeshua ben Pantera; but Rabbi Ishmael did not let him. He said, “You are not permitted, Ben Damah.” He answered, “I will bring you proof that he may heal me.” But he had no opportunity to bring proof, for he died. (Tosefta Hullin 2, 22)[32]

    [32 'Hullin' is one of the topical divisions in the Tosefta, & means "unsanctified objects"]
  • The grandson [of Rabbi Jehoshua ben Levi] had something stuck in his throat. Then came a man and whispered to him in the name of Jeshu Pandera, and he recovered. When he [the healer] came out, he [Rabbi Jehoshua] said to him, “What didst thou whisper to him?” He said to him, “A certain word [euphemistic for the Christian invocation of Jesus].” He said, “It had been better for him that he had died rather than this.” And it happened thus to him. (J. Shabbath 14d)

Price, Robert M.. The Amazing Colossal Apostle: The Search for the Historical Paul, chapter 1 (Kindle Locations 417-518). Signature Books.
(It's worth noting accounts of healing a blind man are also related to Vespasian by Tacitus and Suetonius).


Price previously discussed various pre-Pauline texts as the [possible] basis for the story of Paul's conversion on the road to Damascus -

Luke[-Acts] borrowed freely from two well-known literary sources, Euripides’s Bacchae, and the story in 2 Maccabees of the conversion of Heliodorus.

From 2 Maccabees, Luke[-Acts] has borrowed the basic story of a persecutor of the people of God being stopped by a vision of heavenly beings (3:24-26), thrown to the ground in a faint, blinded (3:27), and cared for by righteous Jews who pray for his recovery (3:31-33), whereupon the ex-persecutor converts to the faith he once tried to destroy (3:35) and begins witnessing to its truth (3:36). Given Luke’s propensity of rewriting the Septuagint,[27] it seems special pleading to deny that he has done the same in the present case, the most blatant of them all.

From the Bacchae, Luke has derived the core of the Damascus road epiphany, the basic idea of a persecutor being converted despite himself by direct fiat from the god whose followers he has been abusing. Pentheus has done his best to expel the enthusiastic maenads of Dionysus from Thebes, against the counsel of Cadmus, Teiresias, and other level heads who warn him not to be found fighting against a god ...

Price, Robert M.. The Amazing Colossal Apostle: The Search for the Historical Paul, Chapter 1 (Kindle Locations 417-518). Signature Books.

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Secret Alias
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Re: The Mishna, etc

Post by Secret Alias » Sun Nov 12, 2017 10:07 am

What I find interesting is that:

Fact 1. the Mishnah does not = the continuation of the Pharisees but pretends to. It is something new
Fact 2. Acts does not = the continuation of the Pharisees but strangely pretends to. It is something an outright fiction, second century romance.

Who would have loved the Pharisees so much that he (cannot be a 'she') that he would strain credibility making up myths to say that the Pharisees live on two different communities.

Ok perhaps Christianity isn't a direct continuation of the Pharisees. But just think of it for a moment. Authentic Christianity HATED the Pharisees. The Pharisees are the bad guys of the gospel originally. Then suddenly someone in the second century CE decided to make up a myth that Paul was a Pharisee. Of course this is a lie. But think about the motivation for a moment.

So now we can ask - Judaism becomes defined as a neo-Pharisaic tradition when it clearly is not. The Pharisees were the historical bad guys for the Roman Empire. The Pharisees caused the revolt - despite what Josephus the Pharisees makes up. But the important point is that despite being the bad guys of the Roman and the bad guys of Christianity, someone or perhaps 'some two' guys' decide to reintroduce, re-introject. reintroduce 'the Pharisees' as something compatible with Empire. I can't help but think that that 'someone' was R Judah ha Nasi.

Just think about it. Why does Clement of Alexandria accept or at least tolerate the Acts of the Apostles? It must have been officially sanctioned propaganda.
“Finally, from so little sleeping and so much reading, his brain dried up and he went completely out of his mind.”
― Miguel de Cervantes Saavedra, Don Quixote

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Secret Alias
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Re: The Mishna, etc

Post by Secret Alias » Sun Nov 12, 2017 10:29 am

The Jewish Encyclopedia mentions Mishnah's failure to mention Gamaliel. Could be a challenge to this understanding - unless Christianity was mythically intimated to be a second branch of Judaism. But look again at Abot 1. An argument could be made for a continuation from Gamaliel to R. Judah ha Nasi:
1
משֶׁה קִבֵּל תּוֹרָה מִסִּינַי, וּמְסָרָהּ לִיהוֹשֻׁעַ, וִיהוֹשֻׁעַ לִזְקֵנִים, וּזְקֵנִים לִנְבִיאִים, וּנְבִיאִים מְסָרוּהָ לְאַנְשֵׁי כְנֶסֶת הַגְּדוֹלָה. הֵם אָמְרוּ שְׁלשָׁה דְבָרִים, הֱווּ מְתוּנִים בַּדִּין, וְהַעֲמִידוּ תַלְמִידִים הַרְבֵּה, וַעֲשׂוּ סְיָג לַתּוֹרָה:
Moshe received the Torah from Sinai and transmitted it to Yehoshua, and Yehoshua to the Elders, and the Elders to the Prophets, and the Prophets transmitted it to the Men of the Great Assembly. They said three things: Be deliberate in judgment, raise up many disciples and make a fence for the Torah.

2
שִׁמְעוֹן הַצַּדִּיק הָיָה מִשְּׁיָרֵי כְנֶסֶת הַגְּדוֹלָה. הוּא הָיָה אוֹמֵר, עַל שְׁלשָׁה דְבָרִים הָעוֹלָם עוֹמֵד, עַל הַתּוֹרָה וְעַל הָעֲבוֹדָה וְעַל גְּמִילוּת חֲסָדִים:
Shimon the Righteous was from the remnants of the Great Assembly. He would say, "On three things the world stands: on the Torah, on the service and on acts of lovingkindness."

3
אַנְטִיגְנוֹס אִישׁ סוֹכוֹ קִבֵּל מִשִּׁמְעוֹן הַצַּדִּיק. הוּא הָיָה אוֹמֵר, אַל תִּהְיוּ כַעֲבָדִים הַמְשַׁמְּשִׁין אֶת הָרַב עַל מְנָת לְקַבֵּל פְּרָס, אֶלָּא הֱווּ כַעֲבָדִים הַמְשַׁמְּשִׁין אֶת הָרַב שֶׁלֹּא עַל מְנָת לְקַבֵּל פְּרָס, וִיהִי מוֹרָא שָׁמַיִם עֲלֵיכֶם:
Antigonos, man of Sokho, received from Shimon the Righteous. He would say, "Do not be as servants who are serving the master in order to receive a reward, rather be as servants who are serving the master not in order to receive a reward; and may the fear of Heaven be upon you."

4
יוֹסֵי בֶן יוֹעֶזֶר אִישׁ צְרֵדָה וְיוֹסֵי בֶן יוֹחָנָן אִישׁ יְרוּשָׁלַיִם קִבְּלוּ מֵהֶם. יוֹסֵי בֶן יוֹעֶזֶר אִישׁ צְרֵדָה אוֹמֵר, יְהִי בֵיתְךָ בֵית וַעַד לַחֲכָמִים, וֶהֱוֵי מִתְאַבֵּק בַּעֲפַר רַגְלֵיהֶם, וֶהֱוֵי שׁוֹתֶה בְצָמָא אֶת דִּבְרֵיהֶם:
Yose ben Yoezer, man of Tsreida, and Yose ben Yochanan, man of Jerusalem, received from him. Yose ben Yoezer says, "May your house be a meeting house for Sages, become dirty in the dust of their feet and drink their words thirstily."

5
יוֹסֵי בֶן יוֹחָנָן אִישׁ יְרוּשָׁלַיִם אוֹמֵר, יְהִי בֵיתְךָ פָתוּחַ לִרְוָחָה, וְיִהְיוּ עֲנִיִּים בְּנֵי בֵיתֶךָ, וְאַל תַּרְבֶּה שִׂיחָה עִם הָאִשָּׁה. בְּאִשְׁתּוֹ אָמְרוּ, קַל וָחֹמֶר בְּאֵשֶׁת חֲבֵרוֹ. מִכָּאן אָמְרוּ חֲכָמִים, כָּל זְמַן שֶׁאָדָם מַרְבֶּה שִׂיחָה עִם הָאִשָּׁה, גּוֹרֵם רָעָה לְעַצְמוֹ, וּבוֹטֵל מִדִּבְרֵי תוֹרָה, וְסוֹפוֹ יוֹרֵשׁ גֵּיהִנֹּם:
Yose ben Yochanan, man of Jerusalem, says, "May your home be open wide, may the poor be members of your household and do not increase conversation with the woman." They so stated with his wife; all the more so with the wife of his friend. From this, the sages said, "Any time that a man increases conversation with the woman, he causes evil to himself and neglects the words of Torah; and, in his end, he inherits Geihinam."

6
יְהוֹשֻׁעַ בֶּן פְּרַחְיָה וְנִתַּאי הָאַרְבֵּלִי קִבְּלוּ מֵהֶם. יְהוֹשֻׁעַ בֶּן פְּרַחְיָה אוֹמֵר, עֲשֵׂה לְךָ רַב, וּקְנֵה לְךָ חָבֵר, וֶהֱוֵי דָן אֶת כָּל הָאָדָם לְכַף זְכוּת:
Yehoshua ben Perachiah and Nitai of Arbel received from them. Yehoshua ben Perachia says, "Make for yourself a mentor, acquire for yourself a friend and judge every person as meritorious."

7
נִתַּאי הָאַרְבֵּלִי אוֹמֵר, הַרְחֵק מִשָּׁכֵן רָע, וְאַל תִּתְחַבֵּר לָרָשָׁע, וְאַל תִּתְיָאֵשׁ מִן הַפֻּרְעָנוּת:
Nitai of Arbel says: "Distance [yourself] from a bad neighbor, do not befriend an evildoer and do not despair of punishment."

8
יְהוּדָה בֶן טַבַּאי וְשִׁמְעוֹן בֶּן שָׁטָח קִבְּלוּ מֵהֶם. יְהוּדָה בֶן טַבַּאי אוֹמֵר, אַל תַּעַשׂ עַצְמְךָ כְעוֹרְכֵי הַדַּיָּנִין. וּכְשֶׁיִּהְיוּ בַעֲלֵי דִינִין עוֹמְדִים לְפָנֶיךָ, יִהְיוּ בְעֵינֶיךָ כִרְשָׁעִים. וּכְשֶׁנִּפְטָרִים מִלְּפָנֶיךָ, יִהְיוּ בְעֵינֶיךָ כְזַכָּאִין, כְּשֶׁקִּבְּלוּ עֲלֵיהֶם אֶת הַדִּין:
Yehuda ben Tabai and Shimon ben Shetach received from them. Yehuda ben Tabai says, "Do not make yourself like the judges' advisers; and when the litigants are before you, they should be like evildoers in your eyes; and when they are excused from before you, they should be meritorious in your eyes - when they have accepted the judgment."

9
שִׁמְעוֹן בֶּן שָׁטָח אוֹמֵר, הֱוֵי מַרְבֶּה לַחְקֹר אֶת הָעֵדִים, וֶהֱוֵי זָהִיר בִּדְבָרֶיךָ, שֶׁמָּא מִתּוֹכָם יִלְמְדוּ לְשַׁקֵּר:
Shimon ben Shatach says, "Examine the witnesses thoroughly, but be careful with your words, lest from them they learn to lie."

10
שְׁמַעְיָה וְאַבְטַלְיוֹן קִבְּלוּ מֵהֶם. שְׁמַעְיָה אוֹמֵר, אֱהֹב אֶת הַמְּלָאכָה, וּשְׂנָא אֶת הָרַבָּנוּת, וְאַל תִּתְוַדַּע לָרָשׁוּת:
Shemayah and Avtalyon received from them. Shemayah says, "Love work, hate lordship and do not become familiar with the government."

11
אַבְטַלְיוֹן אוֹמֵר, חֲכָמִים, הִזָּהֲרוּ בְדִבְרֵיכֶם, שֶׁמָּא תָחוּבוּ חוֹבַת גָּלוּת וְתִגְלוּ לִמְקוֹם מַיִם הָרָעִים, וְיִשְׁתּוּ הַתַּלְמִידִים הַבָּאִים אַחֲרֵיכֶם וְיָמוּתוּ, וְנִמְצָא שֵׁם שָׁמַיִם מִתְחַלֵּל:
Avtalyon says, "Sages, be careful with your words, lest you become obligated in an obligation of exile and are exiled to the place of evil waters, and the students who follow after you will drink, and thus the name of Heaven is profaned."

12
הִלֵּל וְשַׁמַּאי קִבְּלוּ מֵהֶם. הִלֵּל אוֹמֵר, הֱוֵי מִתַּלְמִידָיו שֶׁל אַהֲרֹן, אוֹהֵב שָׁלוֹם וְרוֹדֵף שָׁלוֹם, אוֹהֵב אֶת הַבְּרִיּוֹת וּמְקָרְבָן לַתּוֹרָה:
Hillel and Shammai received from them. Hillel says, "Be of the disciples of Aharon, loving peace and pursuing peace, loving the creatures and bringing them closer to Torah."

13
הוּא הָיָה אוֹמֵר, נָגֵד שְׁמָא, אָבֵד שְׁמֵהּ. וּדְלֹא מוֹסִיף, יָסֵף. וּדְלֹא יָלֵיף, קְטָלָא חַיָּב. וּדְאִשְׁתַּמֵּשׁ בְּתָגָא, חָלֵף:
He would say, "Spread a name, lose his name. And one who does not increase [knowledge] ceases. And one who does not study is liable to die. And one who makes use of the crown [of learning] passes away."

14
הוּא הָיָה אוֹמֵר, אִם אֵין אֲנִי לִי, מִי לִי. וּכְשֶׁאֲנִי לְעַצְמִי, מָה אֲנִי. וְאִם לֹא עַכְשָׁיו, אֵימָתָי:
He [Rabbi Hillel] used to say: If I am not for me, who will be for me? And when I am for myself alone, what am I? And if not now, then when?

15
שַׁמַּאי אוֹמֵר, עֲשֵׂה תוֹרָתְךָ קֶבַע. אֱמֹר מְעַט וַעֲשֵׂה הַרְבֵּה, וֶהֱוֵי מְקַבֵּל אֶת כָּל הָאָדָם בְּסֵבֶר פָּנִים יָפוֹת:
Shammai says, "Make your Torah fixed, say little and do much, and receive every person with a pleasant countenance."

16
רַבָּן גַּמְלִיאֵל הָיָה אוֹמֵר, עֲשֵׂה לְךָ רַב, וְהִסְתַּלֵּק מִן הַסָּפֵק, וְאַל תַּרְבֶּה לְעַשֵּׂר אֹמָדוֹת:
Rabban Gamliel says, "Make for yourself a mentor, remove yourself from doubt and do not frequently tithe by estimation."

17
שִׁמְעוֹן בְּנוֹ אוֹמֵר, כָּל יָמַי גָּדַלְתִּי בֵין הַחֲכָמִים, וְלֹא מָצָאתִי לַגּוּף טוֹב אֶלָּא שְׁתִיקָה. וְלֹא הַמִּדְרָשׁ הוּא הָעִקָּר, אֶלָּא הַמַּעֲשֶׂה. וְכָל הַמַּרְבֶּה דְבָרִים, מֵבִיא חֵטְא:
Shimon, his son, says, "All my days I grew up among the Sages, and I did not find anything good for the body except silence. And the exposition [of Torah] is not what is essential, but the action. And whoever increases words brings sin."

18
רַבָּן שִׁמְעוֹן בֶּן גַּמְלִיאֵל אוֹמֵר, עַל שְׁלשָׁה דְבָרִים הָעוֹלָם עוֹמֵד, עַל הַדִּין וְעַל הָאֱמֶת וְעַל הַשָּׁלוֹם, שֶׁנֶּאֱמַר (זכריה ח) אֱמֶת וּמִשְׁפַּט שָׁלוֹם שִׁפְטוּ בְּשַׁעֲרֵיכֶם:
Rabban Shimon ben Gamliel says, "On three things the world stands: on judgment, on truth and on peace, as it is said (Zachariah 8:16), 'Judge truth and the justice of peace in your gates.'"

2
1
רַבִּי אוֹמֵר, אֵיזוֹהִי דֶרֶךְ יְשָׁרָה שֶׁיָּבֹר לוֹ הָאָדָם, כֹּל שֶׁהִיא תִפְאֶרֶת לְעוֹשֶׂיהָ וְתִפְאֶרֶת לוֹ מִן הָאָדָם. וֶהֱוֵי זָהִיר בְּמִצְוָה קַלָּה כְבַחֲמוּרָה, שֶׁאֵין אַתָּה יוֹדֵעַ מַתַּן שְׂכָרָן שֶׁל מִצְוֹת. וֶהֱוֵי מְחַשֵּׁב הֶפְסֵד מִצְוָה כְּנֶגֶד שְׂכָרָהּ, וּשְׂכַר עֲבֵרָה כְנֶגֶד הֶפְסֵדָהּ. וְהִסְתַּכֵּל בִּשְׁלשָׁה דְבָרִים וְאִי אַתָּה בָא לִידֵי עֲבֵרָה, דַּע מַה לְּמַעְלָה מִמְּךָ, עַיִן רוֹאָה וְאֹזֶן שׁוֹמַעַת, וְכָל מַעֲשֶׂיךָ בַסֵּפֶר נִכְתָּבִין:
Rabbi [Yehuda haNasi] said: Which is the straight path that a person should choose for himself? Whichever [path] that is [itself] praiseworthy for the person adopting [it], And praiseworthy to him from [other] people. And be as careful with a light commandment as with a weighty one, for you do not know the reward given [for the fulfillment] of [the respective] commandments. Also, weigh the loss [that may be sustained through the fulfillment] of a commandment against the reward [that may be obtained] for [fulfilling] it. And [weigh] the gain [that may be obtained through the committing] of a transgression against the loss [that may be sustained] by [committing] it. Keep your eye on three things, and you will not come to sin: Know what is above you: An Eye that sees, and an Ear that hears, and all your deeds are written in a book.

2
רַבָּן גַּמְלִיאֵל בְּנוֹ שֶׁל רַבִּי יְהוּדָה הַנָּשִׂיא אוֹמֵר, יָפֶה תַלְמוּד תּוֹרָה עִם דֶּרֶךְ אֶרֶץ, שֶׁיְּגִיעַת שְׁנֵיהֶם מְשַׁכַּחַת עָוֹן. וְכָל תּוֹרָה שֶׁאֵין עִמָּהּ מְלָאכָה, סוֹפָהּ בְּטֵלָה וְגוֹרֶרֶת עָוֹן. וְכָל הָעֲמֵלִים עִם הַצִּבּוּר, יִהְיוּ עֲמֵלִים עִמָּהֶם לְשֵׁם שָׁמַיִם, שֶׁזְּכוּת אֲבוֹתָם מְסַיַּעְתָּן וְצִדְקָתָם עוֹמֶדֶת לָעַד. וְאַתֶּם, מַעֲלֶה אֲנִי עֲלֵיכֶם שָׂכָר הַרְבֵּה כְּאִלּוּ עֲשִׂיתֶם:
Rabban Gamliel the son of Rabbi Yehudah HaNasi said: Excellent is the study of the Torah together with a worldly occupation; for the exertion [expended] in both of them causes sin to be forgotten. And all [study of the] Torah in the absence of a worldly occupation comes to nothing in the end and leads to sin. And all who work for the community, let them work for the [sake of the] name of Heaven; for the merit of their ancestors sustains them, And their righteousness (tsidkatam) will endure forever. And as for you [who work for the community, God says:] I credit you with a great reward, as if you [yourselves] had done it [on your own].

3
הֱווּ זְהִירִין בָּרָשׁוּת, שֶׁאֵין מְקָרְבִין לוֹ לָאָדָם אֶלָּא לְצֹרֶךְ עַצְמָן. נִרְאִין כְּאוֹהֲבִין בִּשְׁעַת הֲנָאָתָן, וְאֵין עוֹמְדִין לוֹ לָאָדָם בִּשְׁעַת דָּחְקוֹ:
Be careful about the government, as they approach a man only when they need him. They seem like good friends in good times, but they don't stay for him in time of his trouble.

4
הוּא הָיָה אוֹמֵר, עֲשֵׂה רְצוֹנוֹ כִרְצוֹנְךָ, כְּדֵי שֶׁיַּעֲשֶׂה רְצוֹנְךָ כִרְצוֹנוֹ. בַּטֵּל רְצוֹנְךָ מִפְּנֵי רְצוֹנוֹ, כְּדֵי שֶׁיְּבַטֵּל רְצוֹן אֲחֵרִים מִפְּנֵי רְצוֹנֶךָ. הִלֵּל אוֹמֵר, אַל תִּפְרֹשׁ מִן הַצִּבּוּר, וְאַל תַּאֲמִין בְּעַצְמְךָ עַד יוֹם מוֹתְךָ, וְאַל תָּדִין אֶת חֲבֵרְךָ עַד שֶׁתַּגִּיעַ לִמְקוֹמוֹ, וְאַל תֹּאמַר דָּבָר שֶׁאִי אֶפְשָׁר לִשְׁמֹעַ, שֶׁסּוֹפוֹ לְהִשָּׁמַע. וְאַל תֹּאמַר לִכְשֶׁאִפָּנֶה אֶשְׁנֶה, שֶׁמָּא לֹא תִפָּנֶה:
He was accustomed to say: Make His [God's] will like your will, so that He will make your will like His will. Nullify your will to His will, so that He will nullify the will of others to your will. Hillel says: Do not separate yourself from the community. Do not believe in yourself until the day of your death. Do not judge your fellow until you come to his place. Do not say something that cannot be heard, for in the end it will be heard. Do not say, "When I will be available I will study [Torah]," lest you never become available.

5
הוּא הָיָה אוֹמֵר, אֵין בּוּר יְרֵא חֵטְא, וְלֹא עַם הָאָרֶץ חָסִיד, וְלֹא הַבַּיְשָׁן לָמֵד, וְלֹא הַקַּפְּדָן מְלַמֵּד, וְלֹא כָל הַמַּרְבֶּה בִסְחוֹרָה מַחְכִּים. וּבְמָקוֹם שֶׁאֵין אֲנָשִׁים, הִשְׁתַּדֵּל לִהְיוֹת אִישׁ:
He was accustomed to say: A boor cannot fear sin. An ignorant person cannot be pious. A person prone to being ashamed cannot learn. An impatient person cannot teach. Not all who engage in a lot of business become wise. In a place where there is no man, strive to be a man.

6
אַף הוּא רָאָה גֻלְגֹּלֶת אַחַת שֶׁצָּפָה עַל פְּנֵי הַמַּיִם. אָמַר לָהּ, עַל דַּאֲטֵפְתְּ, אַטְפוּךְ. וְסוֹף מְטִיפַיִךְ יְטוּפוּן:
He also saw a skull that was floating on top of the water. He said (to it): "Since you drowned [others, others] drowned you. And in the end, those that drowned you will be drowned.

7
הוּא הָיָה אוֹמֵר, מַרְבֶּה בָשָׂר, מַרְבֶּה רִמָּה. מַרְבֶּה נְכָסִים, מַרְבֶּה דְאָגָה. מַרְבֶּה נָשִׁים, מַרְבֶּה כְשָׁפִים. מַרְבֶּה שְׁפָחוֹת, מַרְבֶּה זִמָּה. מַרְבֶּה עֲבָדִים, מַרְבֶּה גָזֵל. מַרְבֶּה תוֹרָה, מַרְבֶּה חַיִּים. מַרְבֶּה יְשִׁיבָה, מַרְבֶּה חָכְמָה. מַרְבֶּה עֵצָה, מַרְבֶּה תְבוּנָה. מַרְבֶּה צְדָקָה, מַרְבֶּה שָׁלוֹם. קָנָה שֵׁם טוֹב, קָנָה לְעַצְמוֹ. קָנָה לוֹ דִבְרֵי תוֹרָה, קָנָה לוֹ חַיֵּי הָעוֹלָם הַבָּא:
He was accustomed to say: The more flesh, the more worms. The more possessions, the more worry. The more wives, the more witchcraft. The more maidservants, the more lewdness. The more man-servants, the more theft. The more Torah, the more life. The more sitting [and studying], the more wisdom. The more counsel, the more understanding. The more charity, the more peace. One who has acquired a good name has acquired for himself. One who has acquired words of Torah has acquired for himself the life of the World to Come.
I think that's a pretty strong case for Gamaliel being R Judah's claim to tradition.
“Finally, from so little sleeping and so much reading, his brain dried up and he went completely out of his mind.”
― Miguel de Cervantes Saavedra, Don Quixote

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Secret Alias
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Re: The Mishna, etc

Post by Secret Alias » Sun Nov 12, 2017 11:35 am

So think about it. Acts says that Paul was a student of Gamaliel; R Judah ha Nasi claimed to be of the tradition of Gamaliel. Judah was close to the government. The question is - is there any mention of Judah in contemporary Christian circles? Yes indeed there is. Another coincidence. Eusebius mentions a Judas mentioned by Clement in Book 1 of the Stromata:
At this time another writer, Judas, discoursing about the seventy weeks in Daniel, brings down the chronology to the tenth year of the reign of Severus. He thought that the coming of Antichrist, which was much talked about, was then near. 1808 So greatly did the agitation caused by the persecution of our people at this time disturb the minds of many.
Judas has to be the name of a Jew. What is a Jewish interpretation of Daniel doing in Christian history?
“Finally, from so little sleeping and so much reading, his brain dried up and he went completely out of his mind.”
― Miguel de Cervantes Saavedra, Don Quixote

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Re: The Mishna, etc

Post by Secret Alias » Sun Nov 12, 2017 12:27 pm

The question then is - is Acts and the Mishnah's understanding of Gamaliel historical fact/significance coincidence or owing to a shared author?
“Finally, from so little sleeping and so much reading, his brain dried up and he went completely out of his mind.”
― Miguel de Cervantes Saavedra, Don Quixote

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Re: The Mishna, etc

Post by MrMacSon » Sun Nov 12, 2017 1:18 pm

I'm trying to look at this globally at present ie. not go down too many rabbit-holes yet (even though I did on my previous post).

I'm trying to align the time-lines, and identify nuances or points of interest.
  • eg. R Judah ha Nasi is said to have been born on the very day! that Akiva was 'martyred' (in 135 AD/CE).
  • and the date 183 AD/CE has cropped up a few times in relation to R Judah ha Nasi and the Mishnah. Why so specific? It seems to be in a time-period that demarcates the end of the time of Justin Martyr and the start of Irenaeus (and maybe Hippolytus).

    Do Martyr's and Irenaeus' (and others') writings reflect a form of midrash?

I intend to summarise the above dump of information and try to contextualise it in terms of a time-line and key Jewish tanna'im figures
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Re: The Mishna, etc

Post by MrMacSon » Sun Nov 12, 2017 2:25 pm

In the Talmud, Gamaliel is described as bearing the titles Nasi and Rabban (our master), as the president of the Great Sanhedrin in Jerusalem; although some dispute this, it is not doubted that he held a senior position in the highest court in Jerusalem.[3] Gamaliel holds a reputation in the Mishnah for being one of the greatest teachers in all the annals of Judaism:
  • "Since Rabban Gamaliel the Elder died, there has been no more reverence for the law, and purity and piety died out at the same time"
.. [Interestingly], Gamaliel is not listed as part of the chain of individuals who perpetuated the Mishnaic tradition.[10] Instead the chain is listed as passing directly from Hillel to Johanan ben Zakkai.

Nevertheless, the Mishnah mentions Gamaliel's authorship of a few legal ordinances on the subjects of community welfare and conjugal rights.
  • He argued that the law should protect women during divorce, and that, for the purpose of remarriage, a single witness was sufficient evidence for the death of a husband.[11]
  • The Mishnah also contains a saying it attributes to "Gamaliel", although it is vague about which particular "Gamaliel" it means. The saying itself concerns religious scruples:
    • "Obtain a teacher for yourself, keep yourself [on religious questions] far from doubt, and only infrequently give a tithe using general valuation."[12]
Various pieces of classical rabbinic literature additionally mention that Gamaliel sent out three epistles, designed as notifications of new religious rulings, and which portray Gamaliel as the head of the Jewish body for religious law.[13][14][15][16] Two of these three were sent, respectively, to the inhabitants of Galilee and "the Darom" (southern Judea), and were on the subject of the Levite Tithe. The third epistle was sent to the Jews of the Diaspora, and argued for the introduction of an intercalary month.

Since the Hillel school of thought is presented collectively, there are very few other teachings which are clearly identifiable as Gamaliel's. There is only a somewhat cryptic dictum, comparing his students to classes of fish:
  • A ritually impure fish: one who has memorised everything by study, but has no understanding, and is the son of poor parents
  • A ritually pure fish: one who has learnt and understood everything, and is the son of rich parents
  • A fish from the Jordan River: one who has learnt everything, but doesn't know how to respond
  • A fish from the Mediterranean: one who has learnt everything, and knows how to respond
Born: Gamla
Died: 52 AD, Jerusalem, Israel

Father: Simeon ben Hillel

Children: Simeon ben Gamliel, Abibon (also Abibas, Abibus), & a daughter who is said to have married a priest named Simon ben Nathanael
Grandchildren: Gamaliel II, Ima Shalom,
Great grandchild: Simeon ben Gamliel II
Great-great-grandchild: Rabbi Judah ha-Nasi, b. 135 AD; son of ^Simeon ben Gamliel II

http://www.jewishencyclopedia.com/artic ... gamaliel-i

_________________________________


Modified from the wikipedia entry about Gamaliel 'in Christian Tradition' -

The Talmud describe Gamaliel as teaching a student who displayed "impudence in learning" [Shabbat 30b].

A few scholars identify this as a possible reference to Paul the Apostle.

Paul is said to have been brought up in Jerusalem "at the feet of Gamaliel, [and] taught according to the perfect manner of the law of the fathers" (Acts 22:3). There is no record of Gamaliel ever having taught in public.

No further details are given about which teachings Paul adopted from Gamaliel, though it is assumed that, as a Pharisee, Paul was, at that time, a devout Jew.

The relationship of Paul the Apostle and Judaism continues to be the subject of scholarly debate. Helmut Koester, Professor of Divinity and of Ecclesiastical History at Harvard University, questions if Paul studied under this famous rabbi, arguing that there is a marked contrast between the tolerance that Gamaliel is said to have expressed about Christianity and the "murderous rage" against Christians that Paul is described as having prior to his conversion.
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Re: The Mishna, etc

Post by MrMacSon » Mon Nov 13, 2017 2:51 am

Rabban Gamaliel II (also spelled Gamliel; Hebrew: רבן גמליאל דיבנה‎‎) was the first person to lead the Sanhedrin as Nasi after the fall of the second temple, which occurred in 70 CE. Gamliel was appointed nasi approximately 10 years later.

Gamaliel II was the son of Shimon ben Gamaliel, one of Jerusalem's foremost men in the war against the Romans,[2], and grandson of Gamaliel I. To distinguish him from the latter he is also called Gamliel of Yavne.

Gamaliel II became Johanan ben Zakkai's successor, and rendered immense service in the strengthening and reintegration of Judaism ... He put an end to the division which had arisen between the spiritual leaders of Judaism by the separation of the scribes into the two schools called respectively after Hillel and Shammai, and took care to enforce his own authority as the president of the chief legal assembly of Judaism with energy and often with severity. He did this ... in order that disunion should not prevail in Israel.

Gamaliel II's position was recognized by the Roman government also. Towards the end of Domitian's reign (c. 95 CE), he went to Rome in company with the most prominent members of the school of Javneh, in order to avert a danger threatening the Jews from the action of the emperor [what danger?] ... In Rome, as at home, Gamaliel II often had occasion to defend Judaism in polemical discussions with pagans (and [supposedly] also with professed Christians).
  • In an anecdote regarding a suit which Gamaliel II was [supposedly] prosecuting before a Christian judge, a converted Jew, an appeal to the Gospel and to the words of Jesus in Matthew 5:17 is made, with one possible reading of the story indicating that it was Gamaliel II making this reference.[3]

    Rabbi Gamaliel II directed Simeon ha-Pakoli to edit the Amidah and make it a duty, incumbent on every one, to recite the prayer three times daily.

    Also, he directed Samuel ha-Katan to write another paragraph against informers and heretics.[4]

    He loved discussing the sense of single portions of the Bible with other scholars, and made many fine expositions of the text. With the words of Deuteronomy 13:18 he associated the lesson: "So long as thou thyself art merciful, God will also be merciful to thee."

    Gamaliel II died before the insurrections under Trajan had brought fresh unrest into Israel.

    At his funeral obsequies the celebrated proselyte Aquila (Akylas Onkelos), reviving an ancient custom, burned costly materials to the value of seventy minae.

    He excommunicated his own brother-in-law, Eliezer ben Hyrcanus.

    In a dispute about fixing the calendar, Rabban Gamaliel humiliated Rabbi Joshua ben Hananiah by asking him to show up with his "stick and satchel" (weekday attire) on the holy day which according to Rabbi Joshua's calculation was Yom Kippur. Later on, another dispute broke out regarding the status of the nightly prayer, and he humiliated him again by asking him to stand up, and to remain standing while teaching to his students. This incident shocked the Rabbis, and subsequently led to a rabbinic revolt against Gamaliel's leadership of the sanhedrin. The Sanhedrin installed Rabbi Eleazar Ben Azariah as the new Nasi. After reconciling with Rabbi Joshua, Rabban Gamaliel was reinstated as Nasi, with Rabbi Eleazar serving along with him in a rotation every third week.
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