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Re: Hebrew puns.

Posted: Sat Dec 02, 2017 9:30 am
by Ben C. Smith
Secret Alias wrote:
Sat Dec 02, 2017 9:17 am
Incidentally the Cairo Geniza has a liturgical fragment that might represent a more positive formulation of this tradition “…who has created me a human and not beast, a man and not a woman, an Israelite and not a gentile, circumcised and not uncircumcised, free and not slave.” Could Paul be reacting to an early version of this blessing when he declared, “there is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free, there is neither male nor female?" I think so.
That has been my working assumption since I first stumbled upon the suggestion back in the nineties. It makes a ton of sense.

Re: Hebrew puns.

Posted: Sat Dec 02, 2017 10:07 am
by Secret Alias
Yeah read like this - this Paul - is pretty cool. The idea that a radical equality was posited two thousand years ago is pretty amazing. Really makes Christianity seem relevant even today.

Re: Hebrew puns.

Posted: Sat Dec 02, 2017 8:58 pm
by Joseph D. L.
Secret Alias wrote:
Sat Dec 02, 2017 9:17 am
And more to the point the 'leaving things unsaid' extends beyond puns. God wrestling with Jacob and grabbing his scrotum is the best representation of this, the secret obsession with the penis in the Pentateuch through the establishment of covenants, Moses's circumcision. Primitive cultures just made phallic objects and worshiped them. The Hebrew obsession with penises is there in literary form but obscured. 'God wants your penis' could be the subtitle of the narrative and no one could seriously dispute it. In the same way the Jewish morning prayer.1
There truly is much "perverse" symbolism at play in Judaism and Christianity. What do you make of the "Savior of the World" busts that depict a cock with the head of... well, a cock?

Consider as well the Hand of Sabazios/hand of benediction. The same shape is made by the hand when men hold their members when urinating.

Lastly, I'm sure you've seen depictions of the crucifixion wherein Jesus is shown with a phallic abdomen, which reflects the older herm and hermae statues of Hermes and Dionysus shaped like a cross and bestowed endowment. (Dionysus's member was also worshiped as a god, Prapius; and Attis and Osiris both undergo genital mutilation, the cosmic bull in Mithras is shown with a scorpion pinching its testicles.)
2. needless to say I am not always sure that Jewishness being passed on through the mother was always adhered to. May have developed in the second century around the time of Antoninus Pius's attempts to dismantle the penis cult.
Could such policies have been the cause for Peregrinus's harsh comments about Antoninus Pius, coupled with him reinstituting circumcision for Jews?

Re: Hebrew puns.

Posted: Sun Dec 03, 2017 5:42 am
by nili
Secret Alias wrote:
Sat Dec 02, 2017 9:17 am
And more to the point the 'leaving things unsaid' extends beyond puns. God wrestling with Jacob and grabbing his scrotum is the best representation of this, the secret obsession with the penis in the Pentateuch through the establishment of covenants, Moses's circumcision. Primitive cultures just made phallic objects and worshiped them. The Hebrew obsession with penises is there in literary form but obscured. 'God wants your penis' could be the subtitle of the narrative and no one could seriously dispute it. In the same way the Jewish morning prayer.1

There is so much left out of the narrative and you start realizing the leaving out is not only intentional but much of the story is left in the darkness - I think this is where the notion of an 'oral torah' got its start. Irenaeus speaks in the same manner about Christian scriptures in AH 3.

BTW I think that if someone retold the Pentateuch narrative EXPLICITLY as a penis story it would get a lot of laughs - i.e. you start off with a bisexual Adam, then God wants to kill his descendants, then after failing to drown everyone Noah's sons cut off their fathers balls, then the narratives starts up with God promising to give Abraham 'super sperm' Abraham making people touch his balls after the promise, God touches the scrotum of his grandson thereby giving the super sperm etc. I think Celsus said it when he wrote that if you MADE EXPLICIT all the things which are left on the fringes of these narratives people would be left in stitches. People don't see them because they are always directed to look at the surface. But it's really an exceedingly silly story. I mean Jews buy into this because they are so concerned with their own sperm having magical property properties to create the 'chosen race' or people. The sperm myth continues.2
In line with your apparent penis fixation, it's interesting to note that 'projection' refers to something that protrudes.

Does anyone here know a Hebrew term for eisegesis?

Re: Hebrew puns.

Posted: Mon Dec 04, 2017 10:03 am
by Secret Alias
So you're saying that the Pentateuch isn't a cockbook or a book centrally focused on dick? Interesting. If the author wanted to simply say that your descendants or members who joined your little 'Israel club' are going be as the heavenly luminaries he could have simply phrased it that way as opposed to employing דרע. Like the ancient people had our modern puritanical notions - especially in an intensely misogynist culture like that which produced this book.

Re: Hebrew puns.

Posted: Mon Dec 04, 2017 10:14 am
by Secret Alias
And look at Hebrews 11:11 and the way translations obscure the dick power reference - “received power to conceive” is literally “power for the deposition of sperm” (dynamin eis katabolen spermatos). Need I say more?

Re: Hebrew puns.

Posted: Mon Dec 04, 2017 12:21 pm
by nili
Secret Alias wrote:
Mon Dec 04, 2017 10:03 am
So you're saying that the Pentateuch isn't a cockbook or a book centrally focused on dick? Interesting.
Did I mention "projection"? :D

Re: Hebrew puns.

Posted: Mon Dec 04, 2017 12:49 pm
by Secret Alias
But what projectionism is there? I see my son and all his 10 year old friends - 'dick, dick, cock, cock, penis, penis.' I remember being a pre-teenage boy, teenage boy, twenty year old, thirty year old, forty year old 'dick, dick, dick, cock, cock, cock.' Do you think the ancients ever out grew this penis obsession which is the most natural male obsession - quite literally 'natural' i.e. dictated by genetics?