Who is 'the Teacher of Righteousness"?

Discussion about the Hebrew Bible, Septuagint, pseudepigrapha, Philo, Josephus, Talmud, Dead Sea Scrolls, archaeology, etc.
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Secret Alias
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Re: Who is 'the Teacher of Righteousness"?

Post by Secret Alias » Sat Feb 17, 2018 9:40 am

are dateable by paleography and carbon dating to the Herodian era.
You have wonderful kids. Don't show the same kind of loyalty to your ideas. This dishonest framing of the situation here is despicable. Stop digging.
“Finally, from so little sleeping and so much reading, his brain dried up and he went completely out of his mind.”
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Secret Alias
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Re: Who is 'the Teacher of Righteousness"?

Post by Secret Alias » Sat Feb 17, 2018 11:20 am

I suggest you read, "Crucible of Faith" by Philip Jenkins.
Here is something else written by Philip Jenkins:
Eisenman's interpretations, and particularly his dating of events, are starkly at variance with those of virtually all other scholars in the field. Crucially for his argument, too, his datings for key manuscripts have been systematically contradicted by carbon- 14 tests, which more or less kill the book's central thesis and confirm that the Scrolls concern matters long before Jesus' time.
And yet - in spite of the obvious fallacious premise being debunked Eisenman's thesis continues to be hawked by anonymous posters who refuse to identify themselves. If it were just a modified thesis being promulgated in the forum one might suspect that at least some of the apologists had no connection to Eisenman himself. Yet the sheer rabidness of their defense of Eisenman - to the point that they attack the C-14 evidence in a manner reminiscent of Eisenman's published efforts - make Eisenman's involvement, directly or indirectly, seem likely to me. From the New Testament Code:
Rather, when taken as a whole, 14C testing results showed that neither palaeography nor 14C dating was a sufficiently precise enough tool to conclusively contribute to the debate over the accurate dating of the Dead Sea Scrolls.
They should have a 'wanker' emoji at the forum. Give me a fucking break! He asked for the test to confirm his thesis and then when it contradicted his thesis he attacked the validity of the same tests. Seems to dovetail with JohnT's retarded Trumpist behavior at the forum but not conclusive evidence in itself. Eisenman himself was associated with the Beat poet Ginsburg. But then again so was Michael Savage. Hard to know to what degree his defense of his thesis might drive him to modern American irrationalism.
“Finally, from so little sleeping and so much reading, his brain dried up and he went completely out of his mind.”
― Miguel de Cervantes Saavedra, Don Quixote

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Secret Alias
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Re: Who is 'the Teacher of Righteousness"?

Post by Secret Alias » Sat Feb 17, 2018 11:28 am

At least with Trumpism the underlying irrationality and appeal to disinformation can be explained as only a tool for something more core to human behavior (racism, sexism, greed, resentment, hatred of humanity, undesirable people who can't get laid etc). That I get. Will to power, the big lie - we've seen it before with Hitler and Goebels. But to go to the same drawer for the Qumran sect? No one cares this much about the dating of the scrolls except for someone who made the appeal to C-14 in the first place.
“Finally, from so little sleeping and so much reading, his brain dried up and he went completely out of his mind.”
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Secret Alias
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Re: Who is 'the Teacher of Righteousness"?

Post by Secret Alias » Sat Feb 17, 2018 11:37 am

And Eisenman used to post at the Yahoo Group that dealt with a similar subject (https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/JesusMysteries/info). So the behavior pattern is there.

http://robertheisenman.com/interview-fo ... ies-forum/
“Finally, from so little sleeping and so much reading, his brain dried up and he went completely out of his mind.”
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John2
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Re: Who is 'the Teacher of Righteousness"?

Post by John2 » Sat Feb 17, 2018 12:46 pm

I'm fine with all datings for the DSS. I went over them above with respect to the writings that mention the Teacher, and they all date by paleography and carbon dating to the Herodian era, and two of them (4Q266 and the Psalms Pesher) are carbon dated up to 80 CE. The Habakkuk Pesher is the only one that has any carbon dating issues with respect to the idea that the Teacher was James (or anyone else who lived after 2 CE, plus or minus however many years). And as I said above, as noted in The Dead Sea Scrolls in Context (2 Vols): Integrating the Dead Sea Scrolls in the Study of Ancient Texts, Languages, and Cultures (2011), edited by Lange, Tov and Weigold:
The lower calibrated radiocarbon ages of the Community Rule (1QS) and Pesher Habakkuk (1QpHab) around the turn of the millennium and the Common Era, however, could even indicate a date towards the end of the Qumran settlement and the First Jewish Revolt (66-73 CE).

https://books.google.com/books?id=xM7En ... ng&f=false
What I think you aren't appreciating is that it doesn't matter to me if the Teacher was James or anyone in particular; it is that the Teacher seems similar to James, that the "doctrines, ideas, and orientations" in the DSS seem similar to those of the Fourth Philosophy (in which I include Jewish Christianity). While some DSS do date to before the first century CE, the majority of them are from the Herodian era, as you can see in VanderKam and Flint's The Meaning of the Dead Sea Scrolls.

Archaic (250-150 BCE) 21 manuscripts
Archaic to Hasmonean (200-150) 20 manuscripts
Hasmonean (150-ca. 50) 224 manuscripts
Transition to Herodian (ca 75-1 BCE) 5 manuscripts
Herodian (50 or 30 BCE-68 CE) 418 manuscripts

https://books.google.com/books?id=SBMXn ... ts&f=false

The "doctrines, ideas, and orientations" of these older texts (as Eisenman puts it) "can then be shown to have flowed full-blown and almost without alteration into the main 'opposition' orientation of the first century CE. Thus the argument of this book remains unaffected. Only the direct textual link to James or some other first century 'Righteous One' or 'Zaddik' would be broken..."

For me this "opposition orientation of the first century CE" that inherited these older texts is the Fourth Philosophy, and since all the texts that mention the Teacher are dateable to the Herodian era and it is the era I think best fits what these texts say, I'm inclined to think that the Teacher was a Fourth Philosopher. And since I see Christianity as being a faction of the Fourth Philosophy, this would be a way of explaining all the similarities that exist between the DSS and Christianity, whether James was the Teacher or not.
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Re: Who is 'the Teacher of Righteousness"?

Post by John2 » Sat Feb 17, 2018 2:26 pm

Stephen Goranson wrote:
I wrote a case for Alexander Jannaeus being the Wicked Priest and for a contemporary of his being the Teacher, here:
http://people.duke.edu/~goranson/jannaeus.pdf
After I wrote that, Vered Noam published a quite interesting paper, which is available via her name and "academia":
"The Story of King Jannaeus (b. Qiddushin 66a): A Pharisaic Reply to Sectarian Polemic," Harvard Theological Review 107:1 (2014) 31-58.
I suggest that the Judah/Yehudah mentioned in this baraita may be identical with Judah the Essene and the Teacher of Righteouness.
I wish I had seen your link when I was at the library earlier today since I can't view pdf's on my work computer (where I am now), but I will check it out as soon as possible.

I found Noam's article here (which is viewable for me now).

http://www.academia.edu/6024131/_The_St ... 2014_31-58

One of my issues with the idea that Alexander Janneaus was the Wicked Priest is that there is a DSS that arguably praises him, but it looks like you address this and I look forward to reading about it.
4Q448, often called the "Hymn to King Jonathan," is a piece of parchment from among the Dead Sea Scrolls containing two separate short works, part of Psalm 154 and a prayer mentioning King Jonathan.

The only King Jonathan in early Jewish history was Alexander Jannaeus ("Jannaeus" being an abbreviated form of "Jonathan") and it is widely believed that this was the King Jonathan of 4Q448, though some doubt has been raised over the identification ...

If this text does in fact portray Alexander Jannaeus in a favorable light, it discounts his identification as the Wicked Priest, a figure mentioned in other scrolls. For the reading that the text is *against* Alexander Jannaeus, according to K. Penner, E. Main, A Lemaire, D. Harrington and J. Strugnell, G. Lorein, and S. Goranson, with bibliography, see Goranson in the references.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/4Q448
Another issue is the manner that the Wicked Priest is said to have been murdered by "the violent of the nations" in 4Q171 and 1QpHab col. 9:
And [God] will pay him [the Wicked Priest] his reward by delivering him into the hand of the violent of the nations, that they may execute upon him [the judgments of wickedness].
Interpreted, this concerns the Wicked Priest whom God delivered into the hands of his enemies because of the iniquity committed against the Teacher of Righteousness and the men of his council, that he might be humbled by means of a destroying scourge, in bitterness of soul, because he had done wickedly to His elect.
His [Alexander's] life in the field and the inebriety to which he had become addicted combined to bring on a persistent fever, which undermined his strength and rendered the last three years of his life full of suffering. Notwithstanding this, he continued his warlike enterprises until, at the siege of the fortified town Ragaba, he succumbed to his ailment at the age of fifty-one, in the year 78 B.C. His wife, Salome, was present at his death, and by his last will and political testament—as related by Josephus and the rabbis—he entrusted to her the reins of government, and gave her upon his death-bed the following instruction as to her attitude toward the conflicting parties in the nation: "Fear neither the Pharisees nor those that are not Pharisees [namely, the Sadducees], but guard thyself against the dyed ones [hypocrites] who do the deed of Zimri (Num. xxv. 14) and expect the reward of Phinehas" (Num. xxv. 10-13; Ps. cvi. 31; Soṭah, 22b). The body of Alexander was brought to Jerusalem and, thanks to the magnanimity of the Pharisees, who cherished no grudge against a dead tyrant, was interred with every mark of respect.

http://www.jewishencyclopedia.com/artic ... an#anchor5
Perhaps you and Noam address this as well. In any event, I will read Noam's link today and yours later.

Update. Just finished Noam's article, and while it was interesting, I didn't see anything about the Wicked Priest in it. But I will read Goranson's link when I can later.
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John T
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Re: Who is 'the Teacher of Righteousness"?

Post by John T » Sat Feb 17, 2018 4:27 pm

Secret Alias wrote:
Sat Feb 17, 2018 11:28 am
At least with Trumpism the underlying irrationality and appeal to disinformation can be explained as only a tool for something more core to human behavior (racism, sexism, greed, resentment, hatred of humanity, undesirable people who can't get laid etc). That I get. Will to power, the big lie - we've seen it before with Hitler and Goebels. But to go to the same drawer for the Qumran sect? No one cares this much about the dating of the scrolls except for someone who made the appeal to C-14 in the first place.
Please go on and tell us how you really feel about Trump.
Is Trump actually Eisenman in disguise?

Inquiring minds would like to know and Secret Alias knows all. :P
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Re: Who is 'the Teacher of Righteousness"?

Post by John2 » Sat Feb 17, 2018 6:31 pm

Stephen Goranson,

Eshel discusses the death of the Wicked Priest and cites all relevant passages in The Dead Sea Scrolls and the Hasmonean State:
From these five pesharim we learn that the Wicked Priest did not die a natural death, but was handed over to his enemies, who tortured him and put him to death. These descriptions are [not] consistent ... with the death of Alexander Jannaeus, who died a natural death during his campaign against the city of Ragaba ...

https://books.google.com/books?id=t05ok ... th&f=false
Last edited by John2 on Sat Feb 17, 2018 9:50 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Who is 'the Teacher of Righteousness"?

Post by Joseph D. L. » Sat Feb 17, 2018 7:03 pm

Secret Alias wrote:
Sat Feb 17, 2018 9:37 am
Joseph

No as I noted at the outset, I have no entrenched position other than ignore Eisenman.
I've never read Eisenmann so I don't know if that's something he's proposed.

Or conversely, could Joshua have been seen as the Wicked Priest, and Ezra the Teacher of Righteousness?

My knowledge on the Scrolls is wanting so forgive my ignorance.

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Re: Who is 'the Teacher of Righteousness"?

Post by John2 » Sat Feb 17, 2018 8:26 pm

The best candidates for the Wicked Priest that I am aware of are Menelaus, the priest who killed Onias III, and Ananus, the priest who killed James. Both of them were violently killed by Gentiles after killing a "teacher of righteousness."

2 Mac. 13:4-8:
But God, the King of kings, made Antiochus furious with Menelaus. Lysias proved to Antiochus that this criminal had been the source of all his troubles, so Antiochus ordered him to be taken to the city of Berea and put to death in the way that it was done there. In that city there is a tower about 75 feet high. It is filled with ashes, and all around the inside of the tower is a platform sloping down into the ashes. People accused of crimes against the gods or of any other serious crime are taken there and thrown down to their death. Menelaus was put to death in that way, without even having the privilege of a burial, and that was just what he deserved. He had often profaned the sacred ashes of the altar fire in the Temple, and now he met his death in ashes.


War 4.5.2:
But the rage of the Idumeans was not satiated by these slaughters ... but they sought for the high priests, and the generality went with the greatest zeal against them; and as soon as they caught them they slew them, and then standing upon their dead bodies, in way of jest, upbraided Ananus with his kindness to the people, and Jesus with his speech made to them from the wall. Nay, they proceeded to that degree of impiety, as to cast away their dead bodies without burial ...
Eshel's argument about Jonathan Maccabee being the Wicked Priest has some merit on this front as well.

1 Mac. 13:23-26:
When he [Trypho] was near Baskama, he had Jonathan put to death and his body buried there. Then Trypho turned and went back to his own country.

Simon had the body of his brother Jonathan brought to Modein, to be buried in the town of their ancestors. Everyone in Israel was in deep sorrow at the loss of Jonathan, and they mourned for him a long time.
However, the Wicked Priest is said to have committed "abominable deeds" in Jerusalem in 1QpHab col. 11:
And as for that which He said, "Because of the blood of the city and the violence done to the land": interpreted, the city is Jerusalem: where the Wicked Priest committed abominable deeds and defiled the Temple of God. The violence done to the land: the are the cities of Judah where he robbed the poor of the possessions.
Klawans (and others) sees these "abominable deeds" as referring to the moral impurity of the Wicked Priest, but the verse being cited mentions "blood" and "violence" (and what was the killing of the Teacher of Righteousness if not an "abominable deed"?).

https://books.google.com/books?id=Rrhv2 ... em&f=false

But Lim picks up on the "blood" angle in Pesharim:
The pesharist saw in the revealed words of Habakkuk references to the abomination of Jerusalem and her Temple and the cities of Judah which had been robbed by the Wicked Priest. He segmented the original lemma of Hab. 2.17, maintaining the wording of 'and violence of land' in the third citation. In the second citation, however, he altered the biblical text by changing 'blood of man' to 'blood of town,' so that the modified form corresponded more closely with the defilement (by blood) of Jerusalem and the Temple. A literal or peshat reading will not allow him to make this connection easily ...

It is a further example of how the ancient commentator regarded his biblical text to be imbued with more than one level of meaning. Because he had already interpreted the phrase 'because of (the) blood of man' in connection with the Wicked Priest's action against the Teacher of Righteousness in col. 9, it would appear that he decided to modify the text so that in col. 11 it now referred to the blood of the town of Jerusalem ...

https://books.google.com/books?id=zvLHC ... em&f=false
And Menelaus had Onias killed in Daphne in 2 Mac. 4:33-34:
When Onias heard about this, he fled for safety to a temple at Daphne near the city of Antioch and openly accused Menelaus. Then Menelaus secretly persuaded Andronicus to kill Onias. So Andronicus went to Onias and deceived him with a friendly greeting and with promises of safety. Although Onias was suspicious, Andronicus finally lured him away from the safety of the temple and immediately murdered him in cold blood.
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