Was OT originally in Greek?

Discussion about the Hebrew Bible, Septuagint, pseudepigrapha, Philo, Josephus, Talmud, Dead Sea Scrolls, archaeology, etc.
Ethan
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Re: Was OT originally in Greek?

Post by Ethan » Sat Jun 16, 2018 12:30 pm

TALK

DBR דבר το ϝερ

-Spunic-
Habler
Converse
Parar
Fabula
Decir
Saber
Fichar
Seguir
Palabra
dibujar
Verbo
Parlante
Dicho
Libro
Por
Biblio
escribir


WALK

DRK דרך
ILK ירך
ELK הרך
MELK מהרך
ELIKE הריךה

τρέχω ( Trech) "Run"
τροχός (Trochos) "Running, Wheel"
τρέω ( Trew) "Flee away"
κελευθήτης (Keleuthetes) "wayfarer"
Train, Run, Track, Walk, Hike

-Spunic-
Tren
Recua
Reata
Caravana
Carril
Huella
carrera
Raza
Marcha
Rastro
Regats
Curso
Barco
Sendero
Correr
Marca
Huir
Progreso
Cargar
Traer
Corriente
ΕΥΟΙ ΣΑΒΟΙ

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lpetrich
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Re: Was OT originally in Greek?

Post by lpetrich » Sat Jun 16, 2018 6:49 pm

Words that don't resemble each other very much. What a big load of peresh shor.

Some of the Spanish ones I recognize as being descended from Latin, like:
decir - dicere
saber - sapere
verbo - verbum
libro - liber
escribir - scribere
curso - cursus

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lpetrich
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Re: Was OT originally in Greek?

Post by lpetrich » Fri Jun 22, 2018 7:56 am

There is an interesting linguistic quirk in the Septuagint. Many Hebrew proper names in it were indeclinable instead of being forced into Greek noun-declension patterns. The New Testament also carries over this quirk.

Indeclinable means that it stays fixed rather than have different noun-case forms. Classical Greek had five noun cases: nominative, vocative, accusative, genitive, and dative. Here are their meanings:
  • Nominative: subject
  • Vocative: when addressing something or someone
  • Accusative: direct object, with prepositions of location, motion toward that location, like "into"
  • Genitive: possession and dependence, the of-case
  • Dative: receiver of something (to-case), also instrumental, means of doing something (with-case) and locative, being at some location, like "in".
The vocative case is often identical to the nominative one, especially in the plural. The accusative one is identical to the nominative one for neuter nouns.

Here is a paradigm, hippos "horse", a masculine o-stem noun (second declension).
  • nom sg hippos "horse" (subj)
  • voc sg hippe "Horse!"
  • acc sg hippon "horse" (obj)
  • gen sg hippou "of horse"
  • dat sg hippôi "to horse"
  • nom pl hippoi "horses" (subj)
  • voc pl hippoi "Horses!"
  • acc pl hippous "horses" (obj)
  • gen pl hippôn "of horses"
  • dat pl hippois "to horses"
There are many masculine ones, a few feminine ones, and many neuter ones (nominative-vocative-accusative singular -on, plural -a)

Greek also has a-stem nouns (first declension), though they usually end with -ê. They are usually feminine, though some are masculine, ending in -as or ês.

The rest are in a grab-bag category called the third declension. They are an assortment of vowel-stem and consonant-stem nouns. Here is the paradigm for patêr, "father", a consonant-stem one:
  • nom sg patêr "father" (subj)
  • voc sg pater "Father!"
  • acc sg patera "father" (obj)
  • gen sg patros "of father"
  • dat sg patri "to father"
  • nom pl pateres "fathers" (subj)
  • voc pl pateres "Fathers!"
  • acc pl pateras "fathers" (obj)
  • gen pl paterôn "of fathers"
  • dat pl patrasi "to fathers"
So Hebrew proper names could be fit in by using the third declension: "of Israel": israêlos, etc. Some authors went further, like Josephus (Iôsêpos) adding -os to his name, making it o-stem, and adding -ê to the name of Queen Mariamme (Hebrew Miriam, Septuagint Mariam), making it a-stem. BTW, the New Testament uses both Mariam (indeclinable) and Maria (a-stem).


Making a noun indeclinable makes it a poor fit for the language. Its descendant Modern Greek makes many borrowings indeclinable, but they usually have the definite article in front of them, and that word then gets inflected. Even proper names often have a definite article in front of them: "the lpetrich". I looked in blueletterbible.org and that trick is not very commonly used in the Septuagint.

Ethan
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Re: Was OT originally in Greek?

Post by Ethan » Fri Jun 22, 2018 6:07 pm

אבי - ὁ πατὴρ
את אבי ו - τὸν πατέρα αὐτοῦ
אבתיכם - τῶν πατέρων ὑμῶν
אביכם - τῶν πατέρων ὑμῶν
לאבתיכם - τοῖς πατράσιν ὑμῶν
לאביך - τῷ πατρί σου
אבותיך - πατέρες σου
אבותם - πατέρες
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lpetrich
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Re: Was OT originally in Greek?

Post by lpetrich » Fri Jun 22, 2018 8:16 pm

That's lame. Look at the details. Greek and Hebrew aren't anything alike, as your examples show.

Ethan
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Re: Was OT originally in Greek?

Post by Ethan » Fri Jun 22, 2018 10:52 pm

Proverbs 23:29
אוי - οὐαί
אבוי -οὐαί
מדונים - ὀδύνη, ἀηδία
שיח - ψύχω
פצעים - κόπτων
חנם - κενῶν
חכללות - χαλκήλατος

All the Hebrews words in this verse are Greek.
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Ethan
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Re: Was OT originally in Greek?

Post by Ethan » Fri Jun 22, 2018 11:11 pm

Psalm 4:4
Stand in awe

רגז (RGZ) = ὀργίζω (Orgizo)
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Ethan
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Re: Was OT originally in Greek?

Post by Ethan » Fri Jun 22, 2018 11:19 pm

Job 30:29
I am a brother to dragons, and a companion to owls ( Hebrew)
אח הייתי לתנים ורע לבנות יענה

I am a brother to Sirens, and a companion to Sparrows (Greek)
ἀδελφὸς γέγονα σειρήνων ἑταῖρος δὲ στρουθῶν


יענה
- יענהϝ "φοίνικ" 'Phoenix'
- שיר ענה "σειρήνων" ' Sirens'
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lpetrich
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Re: Was OT originally in Greek?

Post by lpetrich » Sat Jun 23, 2018 1:26 am

I went to blueletterbible.org and biblehub.com and I discovered that the Hebrew-Greek resemblance is not nearly as great as Ethan claims.

Proverbs 23:29 -- Who has woe? Who has sorrow? Who has contentions? Who has complaining? Who has wounds without cause? Who has redness of eyes? (NASB)

Greek (LXX) -- τίνι οὐαί τίνι θόρυβος τίνι κρίσις τίνι ἀηδίαι καὶ λέσχαι τίνι συντρίμματα διὰ κενῆς τίνος πέλειοι οἱ ὀφθαλμοί
tini ouai tini thorubos tini krisis tini aêdiai kai leskai tini suntrimmata dia kenês tinos peleioi hoi ophthalmoi

Hebrew -- לְמִ֨י אֹ֥וי לְמִ֪י אֲבֹ֡וי לְמִ֤י [מִדֹונִים כ] (מִדְיָנִ֨ים ׀ ק) לְמִ֥י שִׂ֗יחַ לְ֭מִי פְּצָעִ֣ים חִנָּ֑ם לְ֝מִ֗י חַכְלִל֥וּת עֵינָֽיִם׃
lə·mî ’ō·w lə·mî ’ă·ḇō·w lə·mî [mi·ḏō·w·nîm ḵ] (miḏ·yā·nîm q) lə·mî śî·aḥ lə·mî pə·ṣā·‘îm ḥin·nām lə·mî ḥaḵ·li·lūṯ ‘ê·nā·yim

There is only one word with a close resemblance -- ouai ~ ’ōw -- and the rest don't look anything alike.

-

I note that Ethan does not describe where Greek and Hebrew differ, and he also does not compare Greek and Hebrew noun and verb paradigms.

Ethan
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Re: Was OT originally in Greek?

Post by Ethan » Sat Jun 23, 2018 1:53 am

למי : τίνι , ὤν, λέον, λαός
אוי אבוי : εὐαί εὐαί "Cry of the Bacchae
מ דונים : ὀδύνη, ἀηδία 'Lament, pain of body'
שיח : ψύχω ' Muse, refresh, cool '
פצעים : κόπτων " Cut, Lament'
חנם : κενῶν "empty"
חכללות : χαλκήλατοι "Brass colored'
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