Genesis 1

Discussion about the Hebrew Bible, Septuagint, pseudepigrapha, Philo, Josephus, Talmud, Dead Sea Scrolls, archaeology, etc.
Ethan
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Re: Genesis 1

Post by Ethan » Fri Mar 23, 2018 2:32 pm

firmament in the midst [ רקיע בתוך ]

The more interesting word here is 'midst ' .

Exodus 14:16 - Israel shall go on dry ground through the midst of the sea.
Joshua 4:9 - Joshua set up twelve stones in the midst of Jordan,
Joshua 10:13 - So the sun stood still in the midst of heaven
Joshua 13:9 - the city that is in the midst of the river
Exodus 14:27 - Pharaoh's Chariot in the 'Midst' of the Waters
Exodus 8:22 - I am the LORD in the midst of the earth.
Ezekiel 1:16 - in the middle of a wheel.
Ezekiel 1:5 Also out of the midst thereof came the likeness of four living creatures and a man
Exodus 2:5 - the ark in the midst of the flags[cuwph]
Judges 15:4 - firebrand in the midst between two tails.
Isaiah 41:18 - I will open rivers in high places, and fountains in the midst of the valleys
Psalms 46:2 - earth be removed, and though the mountains be carried into the midst of the sea
Genesis 2:6 - 'tree' in the midst of Eden
Ezekiel 5:4- cast them into the midst of the fire
Exodus 3:2 - a flame of fire out of the midst of a bush
Genesis 3:3 - the fruit of the tree which is in the midst of the garden
Genesis 18:24 - fifty righteous in the midst of the city [ Trojan Horse]
1 Kings 7:46 - Clay-grounds [Adam] between Succoth and Zarthan
https://vivliothikiagiasmatos.files.wordpress.com/2012/01/joseph-yahuda-hebrew-is-greek.pdf

Ethan
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Genesis 1

Post by Ethan » Fri Mar 23, 2018 3:52 pm

Ezekiel is pretty much the companion of Genesis.

Ezekiel 1:5
Also out of the midst thereof came the likeness of four living creatures. And this was their appearance; they had the likeness of a man

Genesis 1:26
And God said, Let us fatten[bara] man[Adam] in our image, after our likeness[Dama]:

The word likeness is דְּמוּת [dĕmuwth] or דָּמָה [damah] , the Gk cognates are δέμω[Demw] 'build ' , δέμας[Demas] ' bodily frame/ vine-shoot' and
also δημός [Dhmos] " Fat / country-land " , דָּם[Dam] 'αἷμα [Aima] "blood" (or juice of a grape).

δημός [Dhmos] " Fat"
- Bara [Fatten] , βιβρώσκω [Bibrosko] "Eat up" , βαρύς [Barus] "put on weight' , βρῶσις [Brosis] " Food" and βρωτόν [Broton] "bread"
https://vivliothikiagiasmatos.files.wordpress.com/2012/01/joseph-yahuda-hebrew-is-greek.pdf

Ethan
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Re: Genesis 1

Post by Ethan » Fri Mar 23, 2018 6:15 pm

Gen 1:7
- Under the firmament
- Above the firmament

Ezekiel 1:23
- Under the firmament
- Above the firmament

Ezekiel is describing a structure with wheels , like a Chariot .

Chariot is רֶכֶב [ Rekeb ] and Firmament is a רָקִיעַ [Rekia ]

The Bible also interchanges רֶכֶב [ Rekeb ] with כְּרוּב[Kereb] " Cherub"

2 Samuel 22:11
And he rode[Rakab] upon a cherub[Kereb] and did fly: and he was seen upon the wings of the wind.
2 Samuel 22:16
And the channels [Aphiq] of the sea appeared

This is not a chariot, but a Sakia [ mechanical water lifting device ]

' Above-Firmament' - Overshot wheel
'Under-Firmament' - Undershot wheel

2 Kings 20:20 - how he [Hezekiah] made a pool, and a conduit, and brought water into he city

2 Chronicles 23:30 [ Hezekiah controlled the Rivers of Eden ]
Hezekiah also stopped the upper watercourse of Gihon

Isaiah 41:18
I will open rivers in high places, and fountains in the midst of the valleys: I will make the wilderness a pool of water, and the dry land springs of water.

1 Kings 7:4
There were windows in three rows, and light was against light in three ranks.

Gen 6:16
Lower, second, and third stories shalt thou make it.

[Man made flood]
Gen 7:11 - the windows of heaven were opened.
Gen 7:12 - And the rain was upon the earth
Gen 8:2 The fountains also of the deep and the windows of heaven were closed
https://vivliothikiagiasmatos.files.wordpress.com/2012/01/joseph-yahuda-hebrew-is-greek.pdf

nili
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Re: Genesis 1

Post by nili » Sun Mar 25, 2018 8:11 am

semiopen wrote:
Wed Mar 21, 2018 4:52 pm
It is difficult to take a person who would make such a ghastly transliteration error seriously. You are posting incomprehensible and apparently nonsensical shit; everyone is entitled to their opinion but why start multiple idiotic threads?
^ this

Ethan
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Re: Genesis 1

Post by Ethan » Sun Mar 25, 2018 8:33 am

nili wrote:
Sun Mar 25, 2018 8:11 am
semiopen wrote:
Wed Mar 21, 2018 4:52 pm
It is difficult to take a person who would make such a ghastly transliteration error seriously. You are posting incomprehensible and apparently nonsensical shit; everyone is entitled to their opinion but why start multiple idiotic threads?
^ this
I guess you read KJV
https://vivliothikiagiasmatos.files.wordpress.com/2012/01/joseph-yahuda-hebrew-is-greek.pdf

nili
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Re: Genesis 1

Post by nili » Sun Mar 25, 2018 10:14 am

Ethan wrote:
Sun Mar 25, 2018 8:33 am
nili wrote:
Sun Mar 25, 2018 8:11 am
semiopen wrote:
Wed Mar 21, 2018 4:52 pm
It is difficult to take a person who would make such a ghastly transliteration error seriously. You are posting incomprehensible and apparently nonsensical shit; everyone is entitled to their opinion but why start multiple idiotic threads?
^ this
I guess you read KJV
That would be a laughably stupid guess. But, given that much the same could be said about your 'translations', no one should be overly surprised by this.

semiopen
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Re: Genesis 1

Post by semiopen » Sun Mar 25, 2018 5:49 pm

Since we just discussed צֵל, this made me think of the very cool word - צַלְמָ֫וֶת (tsalmaveth)

http://biblehub.com/hebrew/6757.htm

צַלְמָ֫וֶת noun [masculine] death-shadow, deep shadow, in poetry (probably = צֵל + מָוֶת,

as in
Though I walk through a valley of deepest darkness, I fear no harm, for You are with me; Your rod and Your staff -- they comfort me. (Ps. 23:4 TNK)
The older JPS is more easily recognized
Yea, though I walk through the valley of the shadow of death, I will fear no evil, for Thou art with me; Thy rod and Thy staff, they comfort me. (Ps. 23:4 JPS)
גַּ֤ם כִּֽי־אֵלֵ֙ךְ בְּגֵ֪יא צַלְמָ֡וֶת לֹא־אִ֨ירָ֤א רָ֗ע כִּי־אַתָּ֥ה עִמָּדִ֑י שִׁבְטְךָ֥ וּ֜מִשְׁעַנְתֶּ֗ךָ הֵ֣מָּה יְנַֽחֲמֻֽנִי׃
(Ps. 23:4 WTT)

As Strong's notes this is found many times in Job, etc.

One has to wonder why the TNK team decided to translate this "deepest darkness" rather than "shadow of death" which seems more literal (not to mention scarier and universally known). Probably the Amos verse is important -
Who made the Pleiades and Orion, Who turns deep darkness into dawn And darkens day into night, Who summons the waters of the sea And pours them out upon the earth -- His name is the LORD! (Amos 5:8 TNK)
‎לבֹּ֙קֶר֙ צַלְמָ֔וֶת וְי֖וֹם לַ֣יְלָה הֶחְשִׁ֑יךְ (Amos 5:8 WTT)

This seems clearly superior compared to something like
and bringeth on the shadow of death in the morning, and darkeneth the day into night; (Amos 5:8 JPS)

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Ben C. Smith
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Re: Genesis 1

Post by Ben C. Smith » Sun Mar 25, 2018 5:58 pm

semiopen wrote:
Sun Mar 25, 2018 5:49 pm
One has to wonder why the TNK team decided to translate this "deepest darkness" rather than "shadow of death" which seems more literal (not to mention scarier and universally known).
Yes, the "shadow of death" is an especially provocative image among the many provocative images supplied by Hebrew poetry and prophecy.
ΤΙ ΕΣΤΙΝ ΑΛΗΘΕΙΑ

semiopen
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Re: Genesis 1

Post by semiopen » Sun Mar 25, 2018 6:48 pm

semiopen wrote:
Fri Mar 23, 2018 10:58 am

צָלַל is an actual Hebrew word meaning dive, sink, settle (descend/incline as you give also seems reasonable). However it doesn't seem to appear anywhere in the bible.

The word you mean is probably ‎צֵל
I looked at this more closely.

http://biblehub.com/hebrew/6749.htm
http://biblehub.com/hebrew/6750.htm
http://biblehub.com/hebrew/6751.htm
http://biblehub.com/hebrew/6752.htm

Seems odd to have the same word this many different times in Strong's.

I think my earlier post is more or less correct but this is technically interesting and worth mentioning.

Ethan
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Re: Genesis 1

Post by Ethan » Sun Mar 25, 2018 7:04 pm

In Psalms 107:7, Darkness is [חֹשֶׁךְ](Hoshek) and the word [צַלְמָוֶת] is Shadow .

You can see the cognitive language between Greek & Hebrew, חֹשֶׁךְ [Hoshek] is σκότος[ Skotos] 'darkness' from σκία [Skia] 'shadow ', however
this word also means Canopy , roof or Umbrella or maybe describing the night-sky that canopies over the earth.

Gen 19:8
" under the shadow of my roof."

צֵל [Tsal ] is describing a covering here, the Greek word is σκέπην [Skepen] , see shakan [שָׁכַן] and שָׁכַב [shakab]

Gen 28:11
" place of sleep[shakab] "

In Psalms 23:4, ' Shadow of Death ' is σκιᾶς θανάτου , this is two words translating from the single word צַלְמָוֶת that we see in the KJV as a composite of צַלְ and צַלְמָוֶת [tsalmowth] . This word is similar too צַלְמֹנָה[Tsalmonah] and צַלְמוֹן[Tsalmown], compare with שַׂלְמוֹן [Salmown] and שְׂלֹמוֹת[Shĕlmowth]

שַׂלְמוֹן [Salmown] from שַׂלְמָה[salmah] means 'covering' (wrapper/garment) synonym with גְּלוֹם [gĕlowm] 'cover/garment ' and κάλυμμα [Kalumma] 'head-covering' .

I conclude that צַלְמָוֶת [tsalmowth] is a plural form off צֶלֶם [tselem]
https://vivliothikiagiasmatos.files.wordpress.com/2012/01/joseph-yahuda-hebrew-is-greek.pdf

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