how does yhwh save?

[theterminator]

according to the jews who read thier torah in hebrew,

I really couldn't comment because the christian usage of the word
"grace" has always been a mystery to me. In my earlier post, I
referred to the word "save" too, which in Hebrew simply means "rescue"
from danger—typically by engaging in physical combat (fighting) with
an assailant who is assaulting the person being "saved". In the
T'nach, "saving" is almost always associated with "fighting" or
"waging war".... I refer you to any or all of the following examples:

•"Just stand still and you’ll see Adonai’s salvation that He is going
to do for your today...."

(Sh'mot 14:13)•"Adonai saved Yisraél from Egypt’s power that
day...." (Sh'mot 14:30)•"Adonai set up a saviour for Yisraél—Otniyél
ben K'naz, Kalév’s younger brother...."

(Shoftim 3:9)•

"Adonai set up a saviour for them—Éhud ben Géra the Binyamini, who had
a deformed right hand...." (Shoftim 3:15)•"....and he, too, saved
Yisraél...."

(Shoftim 3:31)•"If You will save Yisraél through my hand, as You have
spoken...." (Shoftim 6:36)•"....you didn’t save me from them....
and, when I saw that you hadn’t saved me...."

(Shoftim 12:2-3)•"Adonai saved Yisraél that day...." (Sh'muél Alef
14:23)•"....so David saved the inhabitants of K'ilah...." (Sh'muél
Alef 23:5)•"Adonai is my Light and my Salvation—
Whom should I fear?
Adonai is the fortress of my Life—
Whom should I dread?
If evil men approach me
To devour my flesh—
[When] my adversaries and my enemies [attacked] me—
Wow! They stumbled and fell!
If an army encamps against me
My heart will not be afraid;
If war breaks out against me—


On this [assurance] I can rely!" (T'hillim 27:1-3)The above verses
(and these are only a selection—there are many, many more) demonstrate
how the verb save and nouns saviour, salvation are used in the T'nach,
which is nothing like the way christians use them; and as for the
ridiculous (to my mind) expression "saved by grace"—well, words fail
me!

so if one is honest with the hebrew bible, then one cannot find a verse which says that yhwh created blood and flesh for himself then killed it to save people from himself?

[semiopen2]

The word "save" is יְשׁוּעָה Yeshua, as in Joshua, Jesus, Yoshke (my favorite).

Strong's 3444a

something saved, i.e. (abstr.) deliverance; hence aid, victory, prosperity:--deliverance, health, help (-ing), salvation, save, saving (health), welfare.

I wait for Your deliverance, O LORD! (Gen 49:18 TNK)

The LORD is my strength and might; He is become my deliverance. This is my God and I will enshrine Him; The God of my father, and I will exalt Him. (Exo 15:2 TNK)

On further review, the OP is even stupider than at first glance.

[semiopen2]

The proposition in the OP is incoherent, but allowing for the writer's grammatical difficulties, it is also unsound.

This would be similar to asserting that Stephen Hawking was more intelligent than Aristotle because Aristotle didn't know about black holes.

Jewish theological thought changed over time resulting in Christianity and Rabbinic Judaism.

Salvation/resurrection after death is an apparent improvement over having one's sorry ass saved while alive. This is because getting saved while alive didn't always happen, while not getting saved after death is hard to demonstrate.

[theterminator]

I wait for Your deliverance, O LORD! (Gen 49:18 TNK)


The LORD is my strength and might; He is become my deliverance. This is my God and I will enshrine Him; The God of my father, and I will exalt Him. (Exo 15:2 TNK)

how does yhwh deliver some one from danger? does he make flesh for himself and then get it murdered before he delivers from his own wrath?

[beowulf]

Well, Jehovah parted the waters of the Red Sea and joined them together again at the right time.
And He made one special day last longer than its ordained duration when darkness was feared
...

[semiopen2]

I'm still sort of guessing on the question that is being asked in this thread.

There is a thread at FRDB on Is Atheism Irrational? - http://opinionator.blogs.nytimes.com/20 ... d=all&_r=1

Think about it: The first being of the universe, perfect in goodness, power and knowledge, creates free creatures. These free creatures turn their backs on him, rebel against him and get involved in sin and evil. Rather than treat them as some ancient potentate might — e.g., having them boiled in oil — God responds by sending his son into the world to suffer and die so that human beings might once more be in a right relationship to God. God himself undergoes the enormous suffering involved in seeing his son mocked, ridiculed, beaten and crucified. And all this for the sake of these sinful creatures.

From my comments on FRDB -

I think terminator's argument is that since God didn't do this prior to Yoshke, the OT is wrong and therefore so is Judaism.

While there is no question that there is something wrong with Judaism, it probably isn't specifically this. In fact, Plantinga seems to be more anti religions other than Christianity than anti atheist.

The general theological issue is whether God feels pain etc. The Jewish Kabbalistic concept of Qliphoth

The Qliphoth/Qelippot or Kelipot (Heb. קליפות, the different English spellings are used in the alternative Cabalistic traditions[1] of Hermetic Qabalah and Jewish Kabbalah respectively) literally "Peels", "Shells" or "Husks", from singular: קליפה Qliphah/Kelipah "Husk")[2] are the representation of evil or impure spiritual forces in Jewish mysticism.[3] The realm of evil is also termed 'Sitra Achra/Ahra' (Aramaic סטרא אחרא, the "Other Side" opposite holiness) in Kabbalah texts.

FWIW, before seeing the wiki I had no idea this could be spelled with a Q.

The eating of the fruit from the Tree_of_the_knowledge_of_good_and_evil plays into this also.

In Jewish tradition, the Tree of Knowledge and the eating of its fruit represents the beginning of the mixture of good and evil together. Before that time, the two were separate, and evil had only a nebulous existence in potentia. While free choice did exist before eating the fruit, evil existed as an entity separate from the human psyche, and it was not in human nature to desire it. Eating and internalizing the forbidden fruit changed this and thus was born the yeitzer hara, the Evil Inclination.[6][7] In Rashi's notes on Genesis 3:3, the first sin came about because Eve added an additional clause to the Divine command: Neither shall you touch it. By saying this, Eve added to YHWH's command and thereby came to detract from it, as it is written: Do not add to His Words (Proverbs 30:6).
In Kabbalah, the sin of the Tree of Knowledge (called Cheit Eitz HaDa'at) brought about the great task of beirurim, sifting through the mixture of good and evil in the world to extract and liberate the sparks of holiness trapped therein.[8] Since evil has no independent existence, it depends on holiness to draw down the Divine life-force, on whose "leftovers" it then feeds and derives existence.[9] Once evil is separated from holiness through beirurim, its source of life is cut off, causing the evil to disappear. This is accomplished through observance of the 613 commandments in the Torah, which deal primarily with physical objects wherein good and evil are mixed together.[10][11][12] Thus, the task of beirurim rectifies the sin of the Tree and draws the Shechinah back down to earth, where the sin of the Tree had caused Her to depart.[13][14]

The problem with Eve adding to the commandment mentioned at the bottom of the first paragraph is odd because why are we forbidden to eat chicken with milk... but ok.

This is a little simplified, and there is also the view that the Exodus and subsequent giving of the Torah rectified the Tree of Knowledge issue to some extent until the "mistake of the Golden Calf." (as my Rabbi calls it)

The issue seems to boil down to how this shit actually affected the creator. The idea (from Isaac_Luria - Madonna's hero) is that yes, the big guy was very sad. That is, both the Kelipot and the eating of the fruit were of great cosmic significance.

My impression is that Christianity was the first religion to codify the concept of the suffering creator. I'm not sure that is a reason to immediately convert though.

[beowulf]

This is a question meant for Christians. It says that the Gospels have nothing to do with Judaism, why then do Christians compromise the invincible Jehovah.

There is no satisfactory explanation for such a demeaning association.

[theterminator]

"I think terminator's argument is that since God didn't do this prior to Yoshke, the OT is wrong and therefore so is Judaism."

no sir, this is not what i am saying. i didn't know my english was that bad.

[theterminator]

what i was saying was that i can't find any evidence in the torah where diety makes flesh for himself, gets it pinned to save from his own danger/wrath. christian saviour and jewish saviour are two different type of saviours which have nothing in common.

[semiopen]

what i was saying was that i can't find any evidence in the torah where diety makes flesh for himself, gets it pinned to save from his own danger/wrath. christian saviour and jewish saviour are two different type of saviours which have nothing in common.

You are comparing the religions from two different points in time, as I mentioned above.

The Torah was written before the supposed time of Yoshke, so there could well have been a 1000 year difference between the concepts. This isn't a fair comparison.

It is also not a fair summation of Jewish concepts of the Messiah, as those are only developed probably from the last part of the 2nd temple until well into Medieval times.

The Christian concept perhaps defines the basic difference between Judaism and Christianity, but your question shows a lack of understanding of Judaism.

Oddly you are puzzled by how anyone could find your comparison offensive.

Even the later Jewish concepts do not have God having a child (not to mention one whom he sacrifices), and there are differences in the concept of salvation. For example, it is unclear whether there is original sin in Judaism, which makes sacrificing one's son dubious.

http://www.convert.org/Judaism_and_Christianity.html - I don't know how great this link is but it discusses differences between Judaism and Christianity.